be lvl at ?

2milefinal · Post by **2milefinal** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:46 pm

If atc clears you down to a lower altitude and says be level at a fix at that altitude. Do you have to be level right at that fix OR can you just go down to the cleared altitude right away.(?) I attempted to find his in the A.I.M. but had no luck.

thanks

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:53 pm

If they clear you to a lower level as you describe, you can leave your altitude immediately.

If the term "at pilots discretion" is attached, you are responsible for your own terrain clearance in most areas outside Canada and the US.

ywg-atc · Post by **ywg-atc** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:59 pm

From a controller viewpoint, I'd say you can descend now and be level at any point between where you currently are and the fix to be level by.

tumbleweed · Post by **tumbleweed** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:45 pm

When you are told to be level at a fix, it is up to you how you get down to the altitude cleared as long as you are at the specified point when they say. Sometimes you have a lot of time to get there, and sometimes you have to decide if it is even possible.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:44 am

gr8gazu wrote:If they clear you to a lower level as you describe, you can leave your altitude immediately.

If the term "at pilots discretion" is attached, you are responsible for your own terrain clearance in most areas outside Canada and the US.

No. 'Pilots descretion' does not mean you are responsible for your own terrain. This simply means that you are cleared to a lower altitude but can descend at your leisure.

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:11 am

Spokes wrote:
gr8gazu wrote:If they clear you to a lower level as you describe, you can leave your altitude immediately.

If the term "at pilots discretion" is attached, you are responsible for your own terrain clearance in most areas outside Canada and the US.
No. 'Pilots descretion' does not mean you are responsible for your own terrain. This simply means that you are cleared to a lower altitude but can descend at your leisure.

Did you read the part about "outside Canada and the US" ??

Almost no where else in the world provides terrain clearance when giving a "pilots discretion" descent clearance. the discretion part means make sure you are safe to do so..

Hope I don't read about you.... but suspect I will

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:19 am

IFR or VFR, Canada, US, or wherever, it's kinda always a good idea to know what your safe altitude is....

-ATC has vectored more than a couple right into the rocks in IMC,
-VMC is not always VFR (nighttime in the mountains anyone?)
-plus it's just plain unprofessional to not even know.

Had a colleague who's father was doing a routine linecheck on a captain at a certain defunct airline, on an overseas route. In cruise, asked the captain, what's our safe altitude right now? The captain says, oh, I dunno, but we're with ATC right now...BUZZZZ...wrong answer, suspended and off to the sim.

Try a simple exercise, on boring legs...ask yourself at random points..
-What altitude - exactly - am I safe to right now, geographically speaking?
-What would I do - exactly - if I were to have a complete loss of comm right now?

Not to rant, just get slightly edgy when I hear about whether a pilot is/isn't reponsible for terrain clearance...we ALWAYS are...ATC/moving maps/GPWS are all there to help us, nothing more...

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:45 pm

complexintentions wrote:IFR or VFR, Canada, US, or wherever, it's kinda always a good idea to know what your safe altitude is....

-ATC has vectored more than a couple right into the rocks in IMC,
-VMC is not always VFR (nighttime in the mountains anyone?)
-plus it's just plain unprofessional to not even know.

Had a colleague who's father was doing a routine linecheck on a captain at a certain defunct airline, on an overseas route. In cruise, asked the captain, what's our safe altitude right now? The captain says, oh, I dunno, but we're with ATC right now...BUZZZZ...wrong answer, suspended and off to the sim.

Try a simple exercise, on boring legs...ask yourself at random points..
-What altitude - exactly - am I safe to right now, geographically speaking?
-What would I do - exactly - if I were to have a complete loss of comm right now?

Not to rant, just get slightly edgy when I hear about whether a pilot is/isn't reponsible for terrain clearance...we ALWAYS are...ATC/moving maps/GPWS are all there to help us, nothing more...

I think the assumption was that people know generally know what their "safe" altitude constraints are..

The basic answer to what was a basic question, Yes, upon receiving the descent clearance, you can descend on a profile of your choice, in order to arrive at your restriction point at the assigned altitude. Obviously, we all need to be mindful of cleared altitudes.

Question for CI, If you are cleared by arrival control to an altitude lower than your sector or charted altitude, are you going to reject the clearance or question it every time? I am not questioning your own practice. I think it wasn't stated by others because it wasn't addressed in the question.

I think IFR Airmanship 101 makes it pretty obvious who is responsible for terrain clearance.

I always asked the Safe sector altitude and 100 safe during check rides. Only a small percentage knew. Even if we were checking at their home base.

ch135146 · Post by **ch135146** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:44 pm

gr8gazu wrote:quote="complexintentions"]IFR or VFR, Canada, US, or wherever, it's kinda always a good idea to know what your safe altitude is....

-ATC has vectored more than a couple right into the rocks in IMC,
-VMC is not always VFR (nighttime in the mountains anyone?)
-plus it's just plain unprofessional to not even know.

Had a colleague who's father was doing a routine linecheck on a captain at a certain defunct airline, on an overseas route. In cruise, asked the captain, what's our safe altitude right now? The captain says, oh, I dunno, but we're with ATC right now...BUZZZZ...wrong answer, suspended and off to the sim.

Try a simple exercise, on boring legs...ask yourself at random points..
-What altitude - exactly - am I safe to right now, geographically speaking?
-What would I do - exactly - if I were to have a complete loss of comm right now?

Not to rant, just get slightly edgy when I hear about whether a pilot is/isn't reponsible for terrain clearance...we ALWAYS are...ATC/moving maps/GPWS are all there to help us, nothing more...

I think the assumption was that people know generally know what their "safe" altitude constraints are..

The basic answer to what was a basic question, Yes, upon receiving the descent clearance, you can descend on a profile of your choice, in order to arrive at your restriction point at the assigned altitude. Obviously, we all need to be mindful of cleared altitudes.

Question for CI, If you are cleared by arrival control to an altitude lower than your sector or charted altitude, are you going to reject the clearance or question it every time? I am not questioning your own practice. I think it wasn't stated by others because it wasn't addressed in the question.

I think IFR Airmanship 101 makes it pretty obvious who is responsible for terrain clearance.

I always asked the Safe sector altitude and 100 safe during check rides. Only a small percentage knew. Even if we were checking at their home base.[/quote]

Excellent posts!

captain_jeeves · Post by **captain_jeeves** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:45 pm

2milefinal wrote:If atc clears you down to a lower altitude and says be level at a fix at that altitude. Do you have to be level right at that fix OR can you just go down to the cleared altitude right away.(?) I attempted to find his in the A.I.M. but had no luck.

thanks

This is simply a "Clearance" with a "Restriction". Cleared to the lower altitude (with the restriction), is the same as a clearance that would say something like, "…Pilots discretion to blah, blah, blah…”

So, you can start you descent at anytime, provided you make the restriction.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:02 pm

gr8gazu wrote:
Spokes wrote:
gr8gazu wrote:If they clear you to a lower level as you describe, you can leave your altitude immediately.

If the term "at pilots discretion" is attached, you are responsible for your own terrain clearance in most areas outside Canada and the US.
No. 'Pilots descretion' does not mean you are responsible for your own terrain. This simply means that you are cleared to a lower altitude but can descend at your leisure.
Did you read the part about "outside Canada and the US" ??

Almost no where else in the world provides terrain clearance when giving a "pilots discretion" descent clearance. the discretion part means make sure you are safe to do so..

Hope I don't read about you.... but suspect I will

Oops, sorry, I didn't. My bad.
You think that because I mis-read a post you will read about me? Jumping to some conclusion here maybe? Straw Men?

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:13 pm

"At pilot's discretion", in Canada, means that you can begin descent whenever you like, and you may level off at an intermediate altitude if you like. It's right in the AIM.

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:17 am

charlie_g wrote:"At pilot's discretion", in Canada, means that you can begin descent whenever you like, and you may level off at an intermediate altitude if you like. It's right in the AIM.

Nobody is debating what it means in Canada.....at least that wasn't my point.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:20 pm

Like I said, Oops mis-read your post. My Piloting career is not yet at the stage of any real internation flying, so it has not come up for me.

gumbofats · Post by **gumbofats** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:03 pm

ATC has vectored more than a couple right into the rocks in IMC,
-VMC is not always VFR (nighttime in the mountains anyone?)
-plus it's just plain unprofessional to not even know.

wow...complexintentions

As an obvious grandad of these incidents...I'd love to read the examples.

I am a newbie to this forum...so push your weight around as you can, but do you honestly suggest....

1. ATC vectored an aircraft below terrain.?
2. A pilot (less skilled than yourself) gauged VMC versus VFR made a mistake? Lucky for you you were there and survived to tell us all......
3. And as such a fucking great pilot you could teach us all about how to fly in the mountains....or fucking anywhere.

Your pride is impressive.

fly well\\

Gumbo

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:42 pm

For anyone who's interested:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/200 ... 0p0199.asp
http://tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1998/a9 ... 8p0018.asp

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:01 am

gumbofats wrote: wow...complexintentions

As an obvious grandad of these incidents...I'd love to read the examples.

I am a newbie to this forum...so push your weight around as you can, but do you honestly suggest....

1. ATC vectored an aircraft below terrain.?
2. A pilot (less skilled than yourself) gauged VMC versus VFR made a mistake? Lucky for you you were there and survived to tell us all......
3. And as such a fucking great pilot you could teach us all about how to fly in the mountains....or fucking anywhere.

Your pride is impressive.

fly well\\

Gumbo

This was a good topic, was very well maintained till all this this. Good Job buddy.

Skipper · Post by **Skipper** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:50 am

Yikes!

Those TSB reports were interesting. I have a lot of faith in the controllers and what they do, but they are human. You hear a lot about what pilots do wrong, but you rarely ever hear about these little ATC "mishaps" I guess they sometimes fly on Autopilot too. I've been cleared to Vancouver a couple of times before when the center stored plan said Abbotsford

Another thing to remember, correct me if I'm wrong ATC guys. Anytime you're off airways and not on vectors, terrain is up to you. That means when a controller says "Cleared direct to..." the pilot has to make sure they won't bump into anything on the way. I think some people forget that when they're so used to the vector environment

My experience has been to trust my gut and ask questions. If something feels funny, it probably is

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:47 am

A little "gotcha" in this type of clearance caused a serious fatal accident many moons ago in the USA where a DC9 was cleared to a lower altitude to duck under some weather and attempted unsuccesfully to bulldoze the top off of a hill on the airway. The gotcha was there were stepdown altitudes and the pilots descended to the cleared altitude quickly, well below the MEA for the sector they were in. The altitude they were cleared to was a safe altitude but not for 50 or so miles and ATC were held blameless because the clearance was a valid clearance. The crew did not respect the MEA for the airway they were on. No new procedure or law was put in place to prevent this sort of thing. This has happened to me on many occasions where I was cleared to an altitude below the MEA for the sector I was in but valid at the clearance limit. Since I was aware, I maintained the MEA as I was supposed to and everything was fine.

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:00 pm

gumbofats wrote:ATC has vectored more than a couple right into the rocks in IMC,
-VMC is not always VFR (nighttime in the mountains anyone?)
-plus it's just plain unprofessional to not even know.

wow...complexintentions

As an obvious grandad of these incidents...I'd love to read the examples.

I am a newbie to this forum...so push your weight around as you can, but do you honestly suggest....

1. ATC vectored an aircraft below terrain.?
2. A pilot (less skilled than yourself) gauged VMC versus VFR made a mistake? Lucky for you you were there and survived to tell us all......
3. And as such a fucking great pilot you could teach us all about how to fly in the mountains....or fucking anywhere.

Your pride is impressive.

fly well\\

Gumbo

A little "gotcha" in this type of clearance caused a serious fatal accident many moons ago in the USA where a DC9 was cleared to a lower altitude to duck under some weather and attempted unsuccesfully to bulldoze the top off of a hill on the airway. The gotcha was there were stepdown altitudes and the pilots descended to the cleared altitude quickly, well below the MEA for the sector they were in. The altitude they were cleared to was a safe altitude but not for 50 or so miles and ATC were held blameless because the clearance was a valid clearance. The crew did not respect the MEA for the airway they were on. No new procedure or law was put in place to prevent this sort of thing. This has happened to me on many occasions where I was cleared to an altitude below the MEA for the sector I was in but valid at the clearance limit. Since I was aware, I maintained the MEA as I was supposed to and everything was fine.

I don't know your experiance or hours or that of others on this forum but how about closing the mouth a taking note at what people are saying and how they say it, you will quickly learn who has the years of experiance and take a note from their book and learn something.

gumbofats · Post by **gumbofats** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:59 am

Yep, here I go,

My comments were a knee jerk reaction assuming (and I know why not to do this) a specific example that was certainly not intended.

The general comments made by all that I "attacked during my previous post" were misinterpreted by myself. I reacted and lashed out in a personal and mean-spirited attack.....and I apologise.

After reading everyone's post's I realize that they are not an attack on those who were the subject's and rather a good insight for the rest of us.

So, in a word....Sorry.

Gumbo

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:10 am

Accepted Gumbo, now lets get back on topic.

As prevoiusly said level at is a restriction clearance, means you can leave your present altitude at anypoint so long as to be level at which ever waypoint was specified to be level at.

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:11 am

gr8gazu wrote:
charlie_g wrote:"At pilot's discretion", in Canada, means that you can begin descent whenever you like, and you may level off at an intermediate altitude if you like. It's right in the AIM.
Nobody is debating what it means in Canada.....at least that wasn't my point.

It's hard to tell who's referencing what jurisdiction in this thread, so that's why I threw it in. Additionally, in my experience, the ability to level at an intermediate altitude with a discretionary clearance is not well understood in the pilot community, so it's worth the clarification.

be lvl at ?

be lvl at ?

Re: be lvl at ?