A Poll: Should we be forced to see the true human condition

[Walker]

A poll: Should the Global citizenry be forced to see the results of their political will?






So with more death suffering and pain on the horizon in “the not so holy land” Iv been having a debate with a few people. And I bet it would be interesting to see opinions here…

We as tax payers and citizens of our respective nations all support the economy. We support our nations ability to make war, and we as a nation command our leaders to carry out our collective will (or at least that’s how its supposed to work.) But how can we as citizens make good reasonable decisions on a particular course of action if we are only being shown one side of the situation? Would you as a reasonable person be willing to have your nation standby and let thousands suffer if you actually SAW the human reality of a situation?

Most people (at least in the west) are far too self absorbed to read reports from international agencies on the state of a particular region. Reading about how Angelina fucked Brad is FAR more important than what Amnesty International has to say about torture in Iran. Now this is the sad unintended consequence of a culture becoming too obsessed with the false reality of the world. Unfortunately this attitude is very unlikely to change, people will still buy gossip mags, they will still spend their time on MSN talking about a new car that BMW is putting out and the international news section of their preferred news outlet will remain poorly read. So what should we as a global culture do, if anything at all?

“In war the first casualty is the truth.” Propaganda and media are synonymous. It was always THEIR fault, and we are always just acting in self defense. The details of a conflict will always be skewed. This too is the reality of the situation and it too is realistically NEVER going to change. However there is one thing that is very hard to lie/tell selective truths about… And that is the Human cost to a conflict.

Would a nation be as willing to send its soldiers to start a new conflict if the people at home were forced to see the reality of those actions? Would a nation be as isolationist and keep its soldiers at home if people were forced to see the reality of their inaction?

So here is the question: Should graphic images of the dead be almost forced upon people in so much as so they can comprehend the human cost of a conflict. The vast majority of the economic and militaristic power in this world is in the hands of citizens who really have never suffered true hardship. They have never seen bombs going off in the streets on a regular basis. They have never had tanks roll across their front lawn lining up to fire shells at a power station. They have never smelled a burning body, nor have they been forced to hear the screams of an emaciated 12 year old boy for 12 hrs until he dies because to step out and retrieve his body is exactly what the sniper wants you to do… I as a citizen living in a first world country have never had to run for my life, or fear starvation. I do not worry about gangs of angry men wandering around with Machetes looking for an excuse to dismember others.
BUT just because we don’t see it does not mean it does not happen. Just because we don’t see it does not mean that we are not responsible for it either through our actions or our inactions. Our souls are placated by a $1 donation, or by the thought that our leaders are doing all they can. We as a global culture can do FAR more. We have experimental aircraft that run on slush hydrogen and can cross the oceans in under an hour. We have an space station orbiting our planet weighing more than 400 tons. We have put people on the moon, we can conquer the deep and we will walk the red planet inside this century. If the west made the economic and industrial commitment; people would not starve, and in all truth we would have a very good shot at eliminating armed conflict. Inside a decade this planet could be at relative peace. How? It will not come from UN version 2.0. It will not come from some obscure international law, it will not come from some hippy left wing politician. It will have to come from our pockets and from our wants.
But with a population who really in all honesty doesn’t care; how could we ever get people to be willing to have large % of tax revenue go to Africa, or have our leaders stop playing political musical chairs in the UN and actually get something DONE rather than debate the wording of an official press release?

I would like to believe that the answer would be as the title declares; global citizens should be forced to watch and see the suffering in this world. Not censured, not spun; just simply, here is a village in Sudan. And have these very unpleasant sites and sounds broadcast daily on TV, shown in the shopping malls, shown during lunch at the high schools, colleges and universities. People would have nightmares, children would lay awake in bed asking VERY hard questions; the balance would be upset… BUT if these images were forced on people, and they were not taken away I believe that action may actually be taken. If you did not have the ability to walk away from reality (or rather a small sliver of reality) people could no longer delude themselves into not caring by means of disassociation or distraction. As to how such a system would be built remains to be decided; How you would ever get the true nastiness of war to be heard over the hum of the consumer economy would require serious hardball legislation. And how you would prevent such a tool from being used for spin and propaganda would be a VERY important question to answer. But it is still my opinion that putting unpleasant things in peoples faces would illicit a response… I hope the right one…

Thoughts & Comments would be appreciated!

-From the desk of the walking one (because im not suposed to fly drunk)

[Expat]

My feeling on this is that it is not enough to see or read about it. One has to have a chance to live it!
I have been blessed with that chance. The problem when you learn first hand how are things really like on the ground, is one of credibility. When I express my views on this and other forums, I am always met with negative comments, mostly from North Americans, who suffer from the worst western propaganda. I was in Canada last month, and I could not even have a good discussion with some members of my family.
I have a sister who converted to Judaism, and she thinks she knows it all because she travelled to Israel. She is convinced that she has seen the other side of the coin. Her knowledge of the situation matches what they show on CNN.
Well, I have worked in Syria and Israel. There I have seen what the two sides are.
It has to be the worst case of international double standards in the world. Israel has a daily list of UN violations that always go unresolved, but get reported to New York. The US has an automatic veto on any action resulting from these violations. Any violation from the Arab side gets refered to the security counsel for immediate action!
We should never take action on words alone!
What the democratically elected governments of Palestine and Iran have said is prejudiciable, but it is only words!
On the other hands, Pakistan actively harbors terrorists, and Saudi Arabia funds them...
Who cares in the west?
The US criticises election results in Russia and Biello-Russia. Yet the majorities were much larger than the two previous US elections.
The list goes on...
What being on the ground teaches you has no equivalent...The waste of time and funds, the contradictory policies, etc.
Most people cannot talk about it bacause their employers are involved.
But they know...
When a reporter comes here for a piece of information, it is fully screened and reduced to the minimum, and all information that could be damaging to an organization is removed. Reporters have no way to conduct investigations abroad, like they do in the US or Canada. So they rely on expats to tell them something...
Food for thought...

[. ._]

If you run for office, Walker, send me a pm and I'll donate to your campaign.

Good post.

-istp

[Dust Devil]

I'm all for assisting these nations but the only way they are going to come out of poverty is if the take control of their own futures I don't think there is a lot we can do about it.

[cyyz]

*YAWN*

How about we start locally, and all the bleeding hearts, have their wives and children raped, and murdered, then they can watch their murderers/criminals get off scott free or at best get a few days in a 100k/yr jail cell...

Just so they can see what they're always "fighting for."

How about all of the same goofs get a tour of the "homeless housing" dept, and see how 250 million/yr is spent on 5000 homeless people(60k per homeless, yet they still have no home)

A tour of the 2billion dollar gun registry.

But you want to go straight to "globalization," and do a tour of an african city, and force people to see how they "suffer," how the children suffer, so you'll hopefully show the same starving dad, having 10 kids with 10 wives, spreading aids to each one of them and having 10 kids born with aids, who when born are starving....

it's great and dandy you want to show them the "real world" but you better be showing the entire picture, wow, some isreali's plowing down a palestinian home(which they stopped ) hope you first show how the terrorist was telling his family, "hey 2mrw I'm gonna suicide bomb a bus" and the family giving him high fives, and then also showing the pictures of his suicide mission...

You honestly think 1/2 of NA doesn't know what's going around in the world???

You want to show them how "bad" china is for killing it's murderers and harvesting their organs, you better also show, people in the West, who are dying and suffering on a daily basis because they're waiting for a donor, and most of the time not getting it, and in the US, lol, most not being able to afford it....

last example, but you get the jist of it I hope, us sending money to some nation as aid, and the president taking the money buying a wive and a limo and the people left to starve.

[niss]

What the democratically elected governments of Palestine and Iran have said is prejudiciable, but it is only words!
On the other hands, Pakistan actively harbors terrorists, and Saudi Arabia funds them...

Expat,

I think what the government of palestine (Hamas) has done has been a little more than words n'est pas?

[just another pilot]

Hmmm. This will aways be a very deep debate, because it starts will ones self identity and radiates outward. Political scientists and historians always pose the question of nationality and self identity expanded to the masses. Religion, political affiliation and a mix of personal principles and beliefs further blur regional differences not only globaly, but within regions of countries and cultures.
Nationalism is created through similar beliefs, identity and goals. Beliefs have their roots in religion (Catholosism in North America), indentity in regions and goals obtained through economic and geo-political authority.

One of the most interesting reads that I have come across in my studies was by Sebastian Haffner;

Sebastian Haffner was a renowned political commentator in Germany until his death in 1999. He wrote extensively about the problem of Nazism and the decline of German democracy in the 1920’s. Haffner was what the Nazis classified as Aryan; however he was a non-Nazi who despised the regime and was not in immediate danger from it. He was therefore able to write with the clarity that comes from being removed from the threat occurring all around him. Haffner’s memoirs were not published until after his death when they were discovered by his son in 2000. Named “Defying Hitler,” most of the early chapters are a summation of German politics during and after World War I. However, his voice slowly enters the story, and toward the end it has shifted from social generalities to the peculiarities of his daily life. What remains constant throughout “Defying Hitler” is Haffner’s ability to relate what he observes and experiences to the underlying thesis of his book; why the German public gave into the Nazi takeover so easily. But the most unique characteristic about Defying Hitler is its prophetic perspective – it was written in 1939.
Haffner illustrates something larger than his own plight. As an urbane bourgeois, he belonged to a new class that had emerged in Germany. In the first three decades of the twentieth century his country had created a democratic society. Haffner writes how the supposed guardians of Germany’s future allowed Hitler to take over not only the political state, but overhaul the countries social structure. He saw at the root of this failure a parallel with the mistakes that German leaders had made accommodating Hitler in the early 1930’s. They were convinced that Hitler could be constrained while harnessing him for their own political gains. They turned their heads when he incited the public to turn against the very democratic institutions they claimed to defend. In similar fashion, Haffner’s peers stood by or, in large numbers, joined in with the Nazi party as its popular component incited violence against Jews, Communists and anyone who opposed their platform.
The Nazi Party opened doors and fast tracked careers for those who saw the party as a way around the traditional system. There was a belief that the Nazi Party would have a short life span, and it was necessary to take advantage of opportunities before Hitler was thrown out. Haffner does not write himself as a saint, because rather than defiance, he spends most of his time under Hitler’s rule pursuing a fleeting lifestyle that he had always assumed would continue. No, Haffner did not fight the lion; rather he spent his time trying to avoid it. His sense of guilt over refusing to speak out, to do something against SA raids and the Nazi lynch mobs and forced “seig heil”s saturates his writing. What Haffner conveys for anyone trying to understand Nazi Germany is his anger with the bourgeoisie for doing the same.
The remainder of Defying Hitler covers the Nazi Revolution of 1933. From the perspective of an ordinary person, he describes the Reichstag fire, the inaction of opposing leaders, the meek surrender of Communist and centrist popular militia, the
Jewish boycott and the steady erosion of freedom amid surface normality. “It was just this automatic continuation of ordinary life that hindered any lively, forceful reaction against the horror. I have described the treachery and cowardice of the leaders of the opposition prevented their organizations being used against the Nazis of offering any resistance. That still leaves the question why no individuals ever spontaneously opposed some particular injustice or inequity they experienced, even if not against the whole…” As a law clerk, Haffner witnessed first hand the ignominious capitulation of the Prussian legal system.
Haffner writes why anyone should be interested in his individual story given the magnitude of what is unfolding around him. He imagined the reader as not lending any credibility to someone who was no more informed about, or influential to, the situation. His response was that history books give the impression that no more than a dozen people are involved; a leader whose deeds and decisions form what is called history. The anonymous others seem at best to be the objects of history. Like chess pieces, they can be moved, sacrificed or captured. Their lives seem to exist in another world, unrelated and unaware what is happening on the chess board. By not limiting the definition of history to the powerful, Haffner is, in a sense resisting. Not only is he acknowledging political and historical reality by stating that the most powerful people are powerless without the consent of the masses, but he insists on the democratic idea that those people are not merely objects of history. Writing in the midst of a crushing dictatorship, Haffner is stating that defiance can come from an individual who simply refuses to accept the “truth” of the political rhetoric that is put before them.
The question that always springs from Hitler’s Germany is why didn’t Germans resist? Some of the reasons have long been obvious. There is an inherent human instinct for survival, however odious the forms it takes and the lengths it may go. And there is an understandable refusal to believe that the worst will come to pass. Again and again throughout “Defying Hitler,” Haffner’s acquaintances talk of the Nazi clowns and how they will eventually reveal their true nature, and that they were destined to fall from power. His endorsement of the idea that dictators are powerless without mass consent dismisses how much Germans knew and when; it was after all just before World War II. Haffner takes for granted that Germans knew of the brutality of the Nazis, and that it would only increase as the state consolidated its power – and that they lacked the spirit to resist it.
Haffner questioned Germany’s national character that molded his generation. They were a country of people who “had a spiritual organ removed: the organ that gives men steadfastness and balance, but also a certain inertia and stolidity. It may variously appear as conscience, reason, experience, respect for the law, morality, or the fear of God.” The German character that had flourished in the 1930’s was formed in the years between 1914 and 1923, during World War I and the monetary and political chaos that followed. The uncertainty of the times, the changing governments, the periodic revolutionary outbursts, and inflation of the mark all combined to create a freedom from stability that was experienced by the populace, particularly the young, as thrilling.
This generation of young Germans became accustomed to having the entire content of their lives delivered gratis by the public domain. The stability that followed Gustav Stresemann’s becoming chancellor in 1923 marked the return to political liberty, which Germans saw as a deprivation, not a gift. “The great danger in life in Germany has always been emptiness and boredom.” Haffner’s story is one of having institutions of day-to-day life and the people who populate them replaced by obscene parodies of the originals. Some join the Nazi party merely to survive, while others join because it offers relief from the struggle against inevitability. For others, it may have revealed their true selves; one that was previously hidden. Intimidation, the erosion of press freedom, violence in the streets, people fleeing or attempting to flee was the degradation of the ideas of freedom and individuality that would gradually vanish from everyday life. It is in his everyday observations and his experience in a training camp for ideological indoctrination that Haffner sees how easy it is to be swept up in the spirit that was taking over Germany. You may not become a full fledged Nazi, but you could be converted into Nazi usable material.
Few questions bewilder us more than how the German’s, a civilized and modern people, could have murdered seven million in the Holocaust and how the victims could have let it happen to them. Haffner’s memoirs were written by a German who had seen no willingness to resist Hitler either inside or outside his country. There has been a fundamental untruth that the crimes must have been committed by a few genuinely bad men. Of course it must have taken an enormous number of participants for the machinery of death to function and nearly everyone in German society must have been touched in some way, and for the most part, did nothing about it. An entire society became so sick that its citizens accepted the monstrosities taking place around them.

[Odysseus]

I think that if we all could see the results of our wills and actions, most of us still would not change our ways. Some bleeding hearts might disagree, but I think people are bored of the doom and gloom of the third world and the realities of the less fortunate in our own nations. Sad as it may be, people are selfish; personaly I'd rather go out and spend my money on myself and the ones I care about than a homeless person or a starving african orphan. And even if we did start giving a damn about the third world, chances are it wouldn't change anything. People can't go from the stone age to the information age in less than 200 years without some serious fallout. Globaly, things will either improve slowly as people take charge of their own destiny or collapse even faster if they continue to rely on uncaring westerners to provide for them. Just my 2 cents.

[cyyz]

As an urbane bourgeois....

But the most unique characteristic about Defying Hitler is its prophetic perspective – it was written in 1939.

Few questions bewilder us more than how the German’s, a civilized and modern people, could have murdered seven million in the Holocaust and how the victims could have let it happen to them.

Yup... '39...

Like how the rich will gladly get richer but on the "inside" they know "it's wrong" and then they preach their rhetoric....

Secondly, the Germans did try to take hitler out 2 assassinations.

And had they won, Hitler would have been viewed as a saint...

But I do like how he admits that lots of people did nothing, to bad most of those people weren't German but were the allies, since they let him take Austria, Czechoslovakia, and finally in Poland the Allies(warmongers) decided to start World War II.

[just another pilot]

Whoa. Allies warmongers? I assume you are kidding? The traditional historical allies were not allies until Poland was invaded, nor were the Russians allies prior to Operation Barbarossa. Appeasment by the Western powers was a very complex issue - as was the rampant militant nationalism flourishing in Europe. Further, some historians argue that WW2 started with the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand. Therefore, the years between 1918 to 1939 was merely a ceasefire held in place by the early Weimar government, a weak League of Nations, and as you have stated - appeasement.

I do not wish to hijack your thread - sorry Walker.

[Vickers vanguard]

If you run for office, Walker, send me a pm and I'll donate to your campaign.

Good post.

-istp

same for me.........I'll vote for you ! walker, your comments about Saudi Arabia and pakistan are very true too !

[gr8gazu]

If you run for office, Walker, send me a pm and I'll donate to your campaign.

Good post.

-istp

same for me.........I'll vote for you ! walker, your comments about Saudi Arabia and pakistan are very true too !

2 votes for the Liberal Party....

[cyyz]

appeasement.

and giving a buck to some impoverished country accomplishes what exactly?

Give them a fish and they still won't know how to fish(catch on their own).

You can only walk the horse to the lake.....

[just another pilot]

cyyz. I have no intention of insulting you, therefore I ask, do you understand the underlying reasons for appeasement prior to WW2 and the consequences of the First World War?

[Walker]

Well CYYZ, do you think we should try or not try to correct the imbalance? By no means am I suggesting we just send bags of rice; A more realistic solution would be to remove all trade barriers; so for example food could freely be imported into the west from the 3rd world. The Cost of this to us would be our farmers would be out of business as they could not compete; the benefit would be the ability to grow a REAL economy overseas.

Expat; I bet your totally right you have to LIVE it; and on this I cant really even comment as I haven’t seen it yet either like most people in the west. BUT I am going to start in October if all goes well. However you are never going to get the general population to travel and see the real world. Hence the idea of more graphic media…

Anyway there is some very scary shit out there that we never see; We command the power, we should see what our actions/inactions bring about, and not live in a state of blind dreams.

[Dust Devil]

Well CYYZ, do you think we should try or not try to correct the imbalance? By no means am I suggesting we just send bags of rice; A more realistic solution would be to remove all trade barriers; so for example food could freely be imported into the west from the 3rd world. The Cost of this to us would be our farmers would be out of business as they could not compete; the benefit would be the ability to grow a REAL economy overseas.

Expat; I bet your totally right you have to LIVE it; and on this I cant really even comment as I haven’t seen it yet either like most people in the west. BUT I am going to start in October if all goes well. However you are never going to get the general population to travel and see the real world. Hence the idea of more graphic media…

Anyway there is some very scary shit out there that we never see; We command the power, we should see what our actions/inactions bring about, and not live in a state of blind dreams.

So why don't you send 3/4 of your pay cheque to africa? Lead by example man!

[Walker]

Im moving to Thailand in October to volunteer for a while;
Then get back here get some more time logged then try to get a job flying aid into Sudan/Somalia etc… Then use the stupid amounts of $$ they pay over there to help anyway I can; I understand you can live on like $5 a day in some of those places no problem…
Or at least that’s the plan as it stands to date…





Edit:
Oh and I also already give $2000 a year to Care International….. and on a Class 4 wage that’s a fair chunk of $$...

[Youngback]

No offense to anyone here but I think race and religion are the two main factors that will prevent world peace for the foreseeable future. Some people simply have too much hate and intolerance to be able to live peacefully. Muslims are killing each other because of different interpretations of sharia law. The more I try to understand people the more I shake my head.

Walker, where in Thailand are you planning on going?

[Walker]

Im not 100% sure if this is the right name but I “Think” its (Ban Ao Bang Khu) its an Island off the coast of Akua Pa about 50 nm north of Phuket Airport. I understand they got slammed pretty hard in 04; and Im going with a dear friend of mine who used to live there and managed to live through it. I wasn’t really in the mood to go through one of those BS “Send us $8000 and we will stick you in a village for a month” places as they are all trying to make a buck. So I figure going with someone who’s been doing this for a few years would be a good way to get into it…

If anyone here has any pointers on the area or this kind of stuff id very much love to hear it!

[Dust Devil]

Im moving to Thailand in October to volunteer for a while;
Then get back here get some more time logged then try to get a job flying aid into Sudan/Somalia etc… Then use the stupid amounts of $$ they pay over there to help anyway I can; I understand you can live on like $5 a day in some of those places no problem…
Or at least that’s the plan as it stands to date…





Edit:
Oh and I also already give $2000 a year to Care International….. and on a Class 4 wage that’s a fair chunk of $$...

That's pretty respectable. good for you man.

I do mean that. I hope it doesn't come across as sarcastic

[cyyz]

Care International…..

Who are these guys?? What's their administration %? How much of your 2000 ever got as far as africa?

Hope you did some research on them..