Today, our Do328 stuck behind B100 YYC to YEG. Centre told them to slow down to 180kts from 250kts. 70kts reduction in speed. that's more than 1nm per min.
And Edmonton Centre puts Do328 behind B100, B200, Jetstreams for traffic seperation. All airplanes left 5 mins apart out of YEG for YXJ. Umm... Slowest one first and Fastest one last... So they can land in YXJ all at the same time.
Our company planes gets stuck behind slower traffic way too often when they could've passed them and landed. and with time to do a short turn around and take off again.
ATC Rant..
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
I'm assuming you asked for a different altitude, but were denied?WRX wrote:Today, our Do328 stuck behind B100 YYC to YEG. Centre told them to slow down to 180kts from 250kts. 70kts reduction in speed. that's more than 1nm per min.
And Edmonton Centre puts Do328 behind B100, B200, Jetstreams for traffic seperation. All airplanes left 5 mins apart out of YEG for YXJ. Umm... Slowest one first and Fastest one last... So they can land in YXJ all at the same time.
Our company planes gets stuck behind slower traffic way too often when they could've passed them and landed. and with time to do a short turn around and take off again.
As for centre "putting you behind" slower a/c -- what was the taxi order on the ground at yeg? ATC is required to provide services on a first-come, first-served basis, so if you taxi 4th in line (and 5mins) behind the slower departure, you're pretty much screwed. The tower can't hold the other traffic based on who might be taxiing next.
The scenario you describe (faster behind) creates more work for all the controllers involved. As stated many, many times within this thread alone, we are not in the business of making work for ourselves, so don't think it happens on purpose.
Particularly if your arrival at YXJ is handled non-radar, it can be difficult (or impossible) to get you down through the other traffic if the spacing will be even remotely tight at destination. You could potentially get stuck above the traffic in trail until they're down. All depends on the radar coverage. What is the coverage at YXJ?
Well here is my two cents worth. I don't work alot of Do328's but.... generally speaking they are a slow performing aircraft. It is often easier to get turbo-props (especially the one mentioned B1900) to chug along at a good rate of speed. Especially in climb and decent phases. Dorniers are notorious in YYZ for being slow (IAS 240-250kts @ Fl290 or below). Quite a bitch to sequence with other jet traffic. In non radar environments as previously mentioned, getting you there first with an overtake does not necessarily mean you will be number one on the ground either depending on closure rate and distance travelled. The controller may have enough distance to get you above slower traffic non- radar, but might run out of time or space to get you back underneath. The minimas for separation are greatly increased to that of radar. The only instance that I can think of non-radar, where aircraft may pass laterally by each other with LESS than radar separation is in an opposite direction omni track 15 degree non radar application. At 15 DME from a fix two aircraft on oppposite radials 15 degrees apart will pass (and can climb or descend through each other) with approximately 3 miles lateral separation. If applied in a radar environment the targets pass by each other quite close!!!
IFRATC
IFRATC
Yeah... for the mentioned aircrafts above with 25 mins of lead, Dornier will get to YXJ from YEG at the same time. I understand if there was any jet traffic, it would make sense. and the first come and first serve, too, if we were allowd to pass slower traffic. Sames thing happens from YYC to YLL. The thing is vancouver centre handles differently than edmonton centre. They ask the planned landing time and speed and give out the flow time. Anyhow... out tight flight schedule doesn't help either.
thanks
thanks
For those curious about overflying yyz
As for in the Control zone ask yyz_tower
In terminal and planning for outside.... Be at 7000' or 12000' or above. Arrival controllers own 8000-11000 why? cause the Fedex screaming in the morning needs the space (those guys
)
Seriously though, the way the terminal airspace is set up is that it is divided between arrival and departure. Arrival own four "alleys" from the bedposts into an "arrival box" which allows descent and alignment for approach without interference from other traffic. The last thing that controller needs is to worry about a DA20 planespotting under the ILS. The departure contoller owns the other airspace and controls the departures and overflights.
Example: The 06's
Overflight from the west will be vectored north of the box or south of terminal since the arrival box is that large. Same from the East if the 24's are active. Small exceptions for low arrivals into ykz and overflights. Usually what will happen is the two controllers will coordinate the guy in some acceptable course and let him through.
The reason for such structure of the airspace is high traffic flow. I think yyz has about 800,000 movements per year (and that is not just from the guys scaring themselves) Tertiary airports like cyhm,cykf,cyxu,cykz make up a very small percentage of the traffic flow in the upper sectors and with yyz landers. As such to ease workload and increase safety procedures have those aircraft restricted to altitudes that do not overly interfere with yyz inbounds/outbounds.
I have heard of aircraft(jets) being slowed to 210kts near cyzr to make a "sequence 10 in trail" that was eleven aircaft deep. Take this coming from each of the four bedposts and you are looking at 2.5miles of separation between each aircraft when they given the approach.
Close enough I think.
As for in the Control zone ask yyz_tower
In terminal and planning for outside.... Be at 7000' or 12000' or above. Arrival controllers own 8000-11000 why? cause the Fedex screaming in the morning needs the space (those guys
)Seriously though, the way the terminal airspace is set up is that it is divided between arrival and departure. Arrival own four "alleys" from the bedposts into an "arrival box" which allows descent and alignment for approach without interference from other traffic. The last thing that controller needs is to worry about a DA20 planespotting under the ILS. The departure contoller owns the other airspace and controls the departures and overflights.
Example: The 06's
Overflight from the west will be vectored north of the box or south of terminal since the arrival box is that large. Same from the East if the 24's are active. Small exceptions for low arrivals into ykz and overflights. Usually what will happen is the two controllers will coordinate the guy in some acceptable course and let him through.
The reason for such structure of the airspace is high traffic flow. I think yyz has about 800,000 movements per year (and that is not just from the guys scaring themselves) Tertiary airports like cyhm,cykf,cyxu,cykz make up a very small percentage of the traffic flow in the upper sectors and with yyz landers. As such to ease workload and increase safety procedures have those aircraft restricted to altitudes that do not overly interfere with yyz inbounds/outbounds.
I have heard of aircraft(jets) being slowed to 210kts near cyzr to make a "sequence 10 in trail" that was eleven aircaft deep. Take this coming from each of the four bedposts and you are looking at 2.5miles of separation between each aircraft when they given the approach.
Close enough I think.
About the D328 vs BE10 senario there, if I see you coming I'll usually tell the Red Deer Sector, which works the airspace between YYC and YEG to let you come in without restrictions, sometimes they'll call me and ask if they can, which I'll always approve. The problem there is you are both classified as twin turboprops (similar types) which in our agreement with the center, as with all terminals, they must provide in-trail spacing of at least 5 NM. I dont look at the two a/c as similar type because the D328 can do almost 100 kts more than the BE10, but that just the way it is. We have the same agreement with them when you leave the terminal southebound to YYC, we have to space you 5 NM in-trail behind "similar types. But 95% of the time I'll tee someting up with them that the D328 will go as fast as possible to overtake slower turboprop ahead and be 5 NM ahead by TORON.
