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niss wrote:All that further re-enforces my theory that Islam is a naturaly violent religion and it is the peaceful followers who have "Strayed from the flock" like the extremists say they have.
Then you haven't been listening (or reading I guess) with a very open mind, and I have the feeling that you have already made it up.
Christians have carried out acts just as barbaric over the past 2000 years. Does that make it inherently violent? By your reasoning, just about all major religions are inherently violent. Buddhism is the only major one I don't recall being used as an excuse to kill for (could be wrong though).
Niss ----there's one other item that many don't realize and it's also a contibuting factor in a whole host of ways to what different Muslims take-from the Koran.
The Islamic religion is older than the Christain religion by a fair amount of time. That is one of the reasons for the many mentions of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary that one canm find in the Koran. Mny of their teachings are exactly the same as ours, etc, etc. The writings for the Koran began within the same time-frame.......but now comes the basic difference between Christians and Muslims on the teachings of both their "good books".
The new entries into the Holy Bible basically ended after the New Testamount was completed and that was a very long time ago. Not so for the teachings and entries into the Koran for the Muslims. They started their passages into the Koran many thousnds of years ago and were still making entries and new additions to the Koran as late as the late 1600's. Some of those later passages were a tad more liberal compared to the ones entered way back when. Therefore you will have many devout Muslims and Muslims leaders that will have different viewpoints based on what THEY follow and believe from the Koran. The "over-zealous" ones get all the Press in the West because they make the most noise and "the squeaky hinge" in the news world gets all or most of the oil (Press) because that's news. The rest are smart enough to keep their mouthes shut because the former group are the ones with all the power, money and weapons. Opening-up your mouth too quickly to criticize in the Arab world can get you dead.
What you are saying is BASICALLY true, but one has to know all or many of the many contributing factors or one has a normal tendency to view religion and politics in that part of the world as we would judge ours in our part of this planet. You're really comparing apples to oranges in many regards....although your basics are right-on. It's after the basics that the water starts to leak-out.....if you get my meaning.
Understand fully also, that there's a ton opf things about this that I know nothing about and couldn't care less. I worked and lived in that part of the world for quite some years and made it a point to make sure I could "mix" with the locals without innocently offending them in some way though jokes or the way I ate perhaps. Most of those items I was trying to learn about all traced back their history and culture to teachings from the Koran.........so I decided to read about that book also. At that point I also discovered some very interesting things that had never ever crossed my mind about many religions. That's all why I know a fair amount about the Koran and still have my original copy given to me, not more that 5' away. The rest of the stuff?..........whew, there's a ton I don't know and never will....because I ain't particulary interested.
LH wrote:The Islamic religion is older than the Christain religion by a fair amount of time. That is one of the reasons for the many mentions of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary that one canm find in the Koran. Mny of their teachings are exactly the same as ours, etc, etc. The writings for the Koran began within the same time-frame.......but now comes the basic difference between Christians and Muslims on the teachings of both their "good books".
I always understood that the Koan was started around in the 7th century, or about 600 years after the Bible. This would seem to indicate that it is younger than Christianity.
I will provide some info. There will be some information here that some may want to dispute - but I will quote directly from the Koran and provide the reference in event you wish to challenge my input.
Number 6 is very important.
As I have had the opportunity to work with folks who are not from North America I made it a point to search out and try to understand why they think the way they do. I suspect some of this information may startle you.
I also have discovered that to know the enemy is to better understand them and the better to defeat them.
To start it off - Islam is commonly reported to translate into PEACE. My colleagues from Kuwait - Muslim fighter pilots - made sure that I knew this was not true. It translates into SUBMIT. A fact that is seldom if ever broadcast in North America. They used to joke with me - Submit or die.
I often wondered of they were really joking - but they needed my help at the time - so they were not about to lose my knowledge and abilities.
This is because any Imam or Sheik can impose Islamic law according to his desires - there is no universal rule of Islamic law - there is ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT and it can be very regional. A very different way to look at things..
First - Under Islam, rejecting Mohammed and Allah is itself a sin that Islamic government is told to punish:
Sura 3:31:
"Say: 'If you love God, follow me (Mohammed). God will love you and forgive you your sins. God is forgiving and merciful.'"
Sura 5:49:
"Pronounce judgment among them according to God's revelations (Koran) and do not be led by their desires. Take heed lest they turn you away from a part of that which God has revealed to you. If they reject your judgment, know that it is God's wish to scourge them for their sins. A great many of mankind are evil-doers."
Second - Rejecting Islam is itself a sin that can earn you death.
Sura 4:65
"But they will not - I swear by your Lord - they will not be true believers until they seek your arbitration in their disputes. Then they will not doubt the justice of your verdicts and will submit to you entirely."
Third - Good Muslims long for death, and take the Western aversion to death as a sign that we know we are sinners:
Sura 2:94-95
"Say: 'If God's Abode of the Hereafter is for yourselves alone, to the exclusion of all others, then wish for death if your claim be true!' But they will never wish for death, because of what they did; for God knows the evil-doers."
Fourth - CHRISTIANS ARE UNBELIEVERS
Sura 5:72
"Unbelievers are those who say: 'God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.'"
Fifth - MUSLIMS CANNOT TAKE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS AS FRIENDS
NOTE - [i]They can take non-believers as friends provided there is a financial, personal or political advantage to doing so. When the advantage is gone or no longer required, they are to abandon the friendship. It is quite acceptable to kill that one time friend as no sin is committed in the eyes of a true believer.[/i]
Sura 3:28
"Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from God - except in self-defense. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return."
Sixth - SLAYING UNBELIEVERS is specifically commanded, though they can also be made slaves and their property can be confiscated. Non-muslims have no legal rights in Muslim societies. If unbelievers are not killed, they can be made to pay "Jizya," a tax to buy back rights like owning property, working, or going to school.
Sura 2:191:
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed. But do not fight them within the precincts of the Holy Mosque unless they attack you there; if they attack you put them to the sword. thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they mend their ways (become Muslims), know that God is forgiving and merciful."
To continue:
I will not even enter into the morality issues that are so abhorred by the average Muslim - because I will then be thought of as a religious fanatic, when in fact I am simply a person who studies their beliefs. Suffice to say the average North American who accepts homosexuality, drunkeness, drug using, common-law marriages and so on as a fact of modern day life would have no idea how this disgusts the average Muslim. It truly fans their hatred of us.
Yeah, I know it disgusts a lot of people here - but I do not think we are prepared to kill someone who does these things.
There is much more but it will simply bore most of you - so in closing this is a short summary - there may be American and Canadian born and raised Muslims - or fresh converts - who will disagree. But that is simply because they are a product of the north American society. Most immigrant parents do not - I say again most - not all - do not think of themselves as citizens of this country. They believe that they are part of a religious world community. Citizenship is secondary.
I can even produce Koranic references for that should it become necessary.
They raise their children very differently from the way we raise our children. So the cycle does not change.
They live differently and are quite capable of killing their own women - honour killings - should they suspect she has even had "thoughts" for a non-approved male.
Koran is logical. It says:
1. Unbelievers are those who do not accept Islam, particularly Jews and Christians.
2. Because unbelievers do not accept Islam, Allah hates them and does not guide them.
3. Because Allah does not guide them, unbelievers become evil-doers - they commit additional sins besides rejecting Islam.
4. Muslims will see the sins of unbelievers plainly, both in non-Muslim society and in dealings with non-Muslims.
5. Therefore, Muslims must fight unbelievers both to limit sin and give unbelievers a chance to go to heaven by becoming Muslims.
Therefore no matter how well they are treated they will continue to make war on the unbeliever. It is written that it must be so - and so it will be.
Note this is very non-pc. It is also the belief of the vast majority of moderate Muslims in the world - for they will SUBMIT to Islam and the Imam who will make the laws..
The moderates - when push comes to shove - will back the hard liners.
It is incredibly rare for any Muslim to go against the commands of an Imam.
I recommend one to get a copy (the Koran) and actually read it. It is not blasphemy as a Christain to read up on other religions.
It also would be helpful to understand that the Mulim faith as a whole is still in the 14'th centurey. That allows the various regional religious leaders to maintain control over their people and promote their individual political agendas.
Sharia law is interpreted regionally - so it can vary from place to place. But it is quite impressive to watch a man have his hand or head cut off - sometimes with only hearsay as evidence of wrong doing.
Anyone here who has done one or more tours of duty in the middle east will tell you that life there is VERY different from what we are used to.
My non - pc thoughts are mine and mine alone. The quotes are direct from the Daewood translated Koran.
Been there and lived there many times over the last 42 years. My only reply is that interpretation of the Koran is that it depends on which one of the 100+ sects of it is doing the readings. The very division of the Sunnis and the Shiites has more to do with events that took place outside the Koran than their differences in it's particular beliefs. Not condemning your article as most of it is accurate. One part in particular is VERY true and that's the fact the a Muslim will hardly ever, if at all, go against the wishes of an Iman. Untill westerners can "get their head" around that fact, they won't even get to first base in understanding a Middle Eastern Muslim.
