The Final Solution

Jimmy Hoffa · Post by **Jimmy Hoffa** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:00 am

Here's just a thought i'm throwin out there ..

As in most industry's and economics 90% of everything comes down to supply and demand. Lets look at how many issues for the industry could be corrected by TC simply limiting the number of Commercial licences issued on an annual basis. (Forgive me if this topic has been beaten to death already)

1: Limiting the supply of Commercial pilots will make them a limited commodity in the industry. Thus increasing their value.
2: This limitation will should increase not only the pay for pilots but also the working conditions.
3: By increasing the pay and working conditions, overall productivity is increased and the industry bennifits.
4: Increased working conditions forces shady operators to clean up their act due to the fact there arn't as much backstabbing and whoring going on in the industry. Pilots are the dominant factor not operators.
5: Less shady operators = less bitching by pilots
6: Less shady operators = less paperwork for TC
7: Less shady operators = less accidents = less paperwork for TC
8: Less Licencing = less paperwork for TC
9: Less paperwork for TC = Happier more productive TC
10: Happier More Productive TC = Better Industry

Cycle Repeats

Just my 2 cents

i'm sure you all have some other valid points as how this benifits the industry. Fell free to share

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:16 am

Uhmmmmm......some of the most unhappy pilots I have ever met were flying widebodies at AC. They never seemed to stop complaining. Some of the happiest pilots I have talked were flying air taxi in Alaska. I think job satisfaction is relative to the individual and their outlook on life, not the size of their paycheque or what they are flying. Maybe that's why there are so many unhappy pilots...they always think things will only get better as their paycheque and plane get bigger, but sadly this is not the case.

Jimmy Hoffa · Post by **Jimmy Hoffa** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:27 am

thats not exactly the point i'm trying to make .. its trying to bring some ammout of decent respectability and professionalism to the industry. Just think for a minute if you had schools craking out doctors, nurses, accountants by the thousands and then flood the market with them .. we'd end up with Dr. Nick performing open heart surgery at his corner store while his 3 interns who were payin Dr.Nick to have the honor of working with him. Sure your heart surgery would cost $5 and comes with a free bag of peanuts .. but what respectability is left inthe profession.. now i'm not trying to compare doctors on an even level with pilots .. i'm just trying to point out that pilots deserve a little more respect within the industry. i never mentioned anything about a huge pay cheque or heavy metal .. what makes everyone happy at the end of the day is as unique as they are .. but on the other hand .. we shouldn't have to live below the povety line and fly for operators that overload / push wx/ cook the books. thats what i'm trying to get at. and i'm trying to put out ther a viable solution to get the ball rolling.

glad to see you approached this in the usual money mentality of an operator .. thanks for the constructive imput

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:41 am

How would you go about limiting the # of licenses, and not making it only a rich person's profession?

I'm sure there have been many quite intelligent and skilled people who simply couldn't afford the education to become doctors.

Ramp time is a simple way to weed out the useless folk and find the diamonds in the rough. Having said that, one month on the ramp is more than adequate, the climate that allows 2years+ is a tad excessive IMO

$.02

godsrcrazy · Post by **godsrcrazy** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:43 am

Jimmy you are trying to make a funny I hope. Nobody is limiting Doctors, Lawyers etc. The truth is there are alot of people that would like to be and are very capable of being Brain surgeons. Unfortunatly they do not have the money amongst many other things to do this. I have met some extreemly inteligent people that could be anything they want unfortunatly some of them knocked up there girl freind in high school and took on the responsibilty of looking after their mistake. You cannot go to school for 5 years plus and raise a family.

Now to get back to the topic if someone told me sorry we do not have a position to give you a liceness for 3 to 5 years until we clear the back log I would hang them.

Can you imagine the power this person would have to decide what I want to do with my life. If you beleive this is such a great idea I suggest you start by giving up your liceness and maybe others will follow. Who knows in a couple years i might get a raise.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:45 am

Problem is anyone with a bank loan and a couple months to blow can get a commercial license. Yet we try and group ourselves with lawyers and doctors.
Yes, it's true some have turned what can be accomplished in a couple of months into several years of college. The fact still remains that you have 200hrs in the circuit.
You become a proffesional pilot with experience.
Proffesional pilots do not "live below the povety line and fly for operators that overload / push wx/ cook the books"
Student pilots do.

Jimmy Hoffa · Post by **Jimmy Hoffa** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:45 am

how would limiting the numbet of COMMERCIAL licences make it a rich man's profession ... i said nothing about private licences. And how many "rich" people would actually want to make a living as a commercial pilot?

Jimmy Hoffa · Post by **Jimmy Hoffa** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:59 am

it appears most are missing the point .. or i havn't made it clear enough.

Godscrazy -
i'm not trying to compare doctors to pilots as individuals or in a real world context as that is not possible they are two seperate professions that serve two very differing roles in the world ... but for the sake of one comparison .. if someone told you that it was going to take you 7 years to become a doctor would you hang them too? The point i'm trying to make is that there are effective ways to regulate and industry and i was trying to fish out the pro's and cons of this one .. but too many people lose site of the actual topic and make pithy remarks about the insiginifigant context inwhich it is presented.

Phillyfan -
thanks for stating the obvious .. nothing was mentioned about experience or somehow transforming youself into a "professional" pilot when you get outside of the circuit .. and if you look closly one of the benifits that could arise from the point i'm trying to make it that it will help correct the fact that people who call them selves "professonal pilots" fly over gross, push wx, cook the books.. this is a fact .. as long as people are willing to do it ,its going to happen .. we all know it .. but you think that just by magically saying that "professional pilots don't do it" puts you on some sort of moral high ground and makes you better than everyone. How about proposing a solution inwhich EVERYONE bennifits, instead of just serving youself.

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:10 am

I'm starting to scratch my head on this.

You started off an idea to limit the # of comm lics to decrease the # of un-employed pilots?

Which is also supposed to eliminate sketchy operators?

My question to you....if you limit the # of comm lics issued every year, how do you propose screening the applicants?

Jimmy Hoffa · Post by **Jimmy Hoffa** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:20 am

i never said it would limit the number of unemployed pilots .. i said it would make pilots a more valuable commodity in the industry. This would inturn (hopefully) have the effect of lessening the number of unemployed pilots (due to an overall decreased number) waiting to stab others in the back , work for less pay, and under worse conditions.

This would inturn force the operators to recognize that they can't just do what they want because there won't be tons of pilots waiting to bend over for a job. In order to attract pilots to their company they would have to stand out somehow ie. better quality of life for their employees inwhich the company could not operate without.

if you don't see how this could help i'm curious as to your thoughts.

As for the selection process, that is another debate entirely. i never claimed to have all the answeres .. mearly opening for discussion a opinion on how to improve the industry as a whole for everyone involved.

flingwing206 · Post by **flingwing206** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:22 am

My question to you....if you limit the # of comm lics issued every year, how do you propose screening the applicants?

make the licence tougher to get. its too easy now, and so any clown can get a licence and join the circus. too many dummies that couldnt handle the night shift at burger king become pilots

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:11 pm

flingwing206 wrote:make the licence tougher to get. its too easy now, and so any clown can get a licence and join the circus. too many dummies that couldnt handle the night shift at burger king become pilots

Don't let a Seneca grad hear that!

-istp

prang one · Post by **prang one** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:38 pm

Flingwing 206 has it

the process of becoming a comercial pilot in this country is far to easy. I would even venture to say the FAA ATPL is harder to get. AND the FAA system is prity damned easy

when doing my JAA ATPL and all the massive amount of information and BS you have to learn to pass the at the time 13 exams. I ask one of the instructors why we had to learn all this crap that nobody ever uses in modern aviation.
Answer in his opinon "to keep the numbers down and the riffraff out of the industry"

Although limiting the number of licensed pilots in theory would have an affect. I beleave the main cause of the poor state of the canadian aviation is due to one factor THE PILOTS.

Flight schools should teach students to be PROFFESIONALS beyond knowing how to fly an ILS.
DONT sign training bonds
DONT buy type ratings
DONT work for less than $30 000 a year on your first job
DONT Fly over weight (because you KNOW nobody else will)
DONT Fly below legal WX min
DONT work for companys that put money before Saftey
DONT fly aircraft that you know are not airworthy

AND the list goes on

Having the government limit the ISSUE of licenses is not the way

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:38 pm

If some folks find themselves flying for sketchy operators to get there fly'in fix. Then the problem is with there judgement, not the number of commercial pilots.
Let's see, if a guy working construction is asked by his employer to do something illegal, dangerous or both he tell's him to shove it and goes home.
But if he's working for an Air Service and they ask him to do something illegal, dangerous or both He saddle's up and does it because clouds look pretty from on top.
I would bet there is a surplus of construction labourers too. They just don't have a hard on for pounding nails. Like pilot's do for "slipping the surly bonds of earth"
And as long as Newbie pilots are willing to work shitty, dangerous jobs, for shit money simply for the joy of putting entries in their logbook. Nothing will change.
We don't need less Commercial pilot's. We need more Commercial Pilot's with better judgement.

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:01 pm

It would be pretty hard to limit the # of commercial licenses, as pumping out pilots has become a moneymaker through private flight schools. Doctors an Lawyers go to university where certain criterias such as GPA's has to be met. But I agree that having to many dogs fighting for the same bone is bad for the industry. It makes for an employers market. It would be hard for the Government to step in and do anything about it at this stage. As far as happines goes, I can honestly say that I have been enjoying myself alot more since I woke up one day and realized that there is alot more to aviation than Air Canada and big shiny jets.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:36 pm

godsrcrazy wrote:Jimmy you are trying to make a funny I hope. Nobody is limiting Doctors, Lawyers etc. The truth is there are alot of people that would like to be and are very capable of being Brain surgeons. Unfortunatly they do not have the money amongst many other things to do this.

The lawyer and medical profession LIMITS the number of doctors and lawyers allowed in each year....

BAR exam, they have had years where they let the dumbest of dumb in because they take a percentage so one year about 15 years ago, everyone had failed and they were taking fuckups who got 30%....

SO, with limitation you're still gonna get the @#$! ups in the profession, so not to good for the public.

Furthermore, you have a brain dead fucking immigration system, so we'll now be letting a bunch of 3rd worlders in to fill the slots with their hours(ONLY IN CANADA

) due to our own limits, and I'm sure most of those fucks have padded their books anyways.....

So canadian pilots those who get in, would still be getting fucked, and because most of them got free ho time in quebec are willing to buy a type rating, or work for free or what have you, to @#$! the next guy.....

So get rid of the free schools would be a good start....

As for the JAA comments, lol,

DONT sign training bonds (Ryanair one of many)
DONT buy type ratings (Ryanair, one of many)
DONT work for less than $30 000 a year on your first job(AC starts at 24)
DONT Fly over weight (because you KNOW nobody else will) (please do, one less pilot*)
DONT Fly below legal WX min (please do, 1 less pilot to worry about*)
DONT work for companys that put money before Saftey(plz do, 1 less pilot to worry about*)
DONT fly aircraft that you know are not airworthy(plz do, 1 less pilot to worry about*)

*oh and when you die, don't have relatives or yourself go to the media ranting how you were doing it to move up and how you knew it was dangerous but you "had" to do it, if you do that, please go and shoot yourself.....

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:53 pm

Limiting Licenses? Is this Communist China or Canada here? How is it fair for some to, maybe fufil a life long dream...and others simply cut-off lol? What about the guy who doesnt want to fly big planes and just wants to instruct part-time as a second career...we need more of those...but cut off. Wouldnt go I think.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:20 pm

Jimmy,

How do you know that if your scheme was inplemented prior to you getting a CPL, you'd be one of the chosen few who would be granted a CPL?

While good intentioned, the idea seems kind of dumb. (Sorry to be so blunt)

Corporate Pilot · Post by **Corporate Pilot** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:58 pm

phillyfan wrote:We don't need less Commercial pilot's. We need more Commercial Pilot's with better judgement.

FINALLY!

Some one actually recognizes the truth.

Anyone who equates pilots with professionals such as doctors, nurses or lawyers is seriously deluding themselves.

There are no educational requirements whatsoever to becoming a commercial pilot beyond the ability to read well enough to pass the written exam and that unfortunate fact is demonstrated very well with most of the posts on these fora.

To quote an old instructor of mine: "Pilots are simply heavy equipment operators wearing ties!"

In any case, I don't know any pilots worth hiring that aren't working. Unfortunately, some that I know that are working, shouldn't be. Which brings me right back to phillyfan's observation.

greenwich · Post by **greenwich** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:17 pm

The simple solution:

Make it harder for pilots to attain licences.

This 'over-supply' of pilots has been around for decades, and is created because ANYONE can become a Commercial pilot. Or an ATPL-rated pilot for that matter! It's too easy.

A friend of mine that went through the aviation college route told me how 80 students started the 2-year program but only 22 completed it. Almost a 75% drop-out rate!

I thought that was brilliant...until he told me that pretty-much all of the pilots that dropped-out simply went to do their licences at private flying schools!!!

So the 75% were too lazy (or stupid) to finish a 2-year college diploma, but they all still became commercial pilots!

NICE!

G

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:20 pm

greenwich wrote:
So the 75% were too lazy (or stupid) to finish a 2-year college diploma, but they all still became commercial pilots!

NICE!

G

ROFL, think seneca was giving out free PPL's so people would go there, get the PPL and then bugger off.....

Like I said, get rid of the free schools....

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:22 pm

We don't need less Commercial pilot's. We need more Commercial Pilot's with better judgement.

If pilots had any better judgement, we wouldn't have any pilots because no one would become a pilot...

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:26 pm

Pete wrote:Limiting Licenses? Is this Communist China or Canada here? How is it fair for some to, maybe fufil a life long dream...and others simply cut-off lol?

What about the guy who doesnt want to fly big planes and just wants to instruct part-time as a second career...we need more of those...but cut off. Wouldnt go I think.

LOL, a flight instructor that wants to teach and not build hours, wow, that would be a first.......

ROFL, so some want to fulfil their life long dreams and go to regency, some(from regency) make it to AC and some crash and rant how regency was bad.

While others go to skyward and work the ramp for 2 years, and have them go tits up and they get a ppc of ramp......

Bitch work was created by the pilots because the market is flooded with dogs.....

Some dogs skip the ramp and buy their PPCs....

But yeah, it's great being a dog just to achieve your "dreams."

Unlike your communist china, ROFL, you enter flight school and you come out as a pilot for Cathay, you really have that one figured out real well.......

PS, most other 3rd world continents AUS, EU have the same thing, come out of flight school and flying a B7XX A3XX....

Yup grande ol' Canukistan.... We should be proud of our state of affairs....

golden hawk · Post by **golden hawk** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:42 pm

Corporate Pilot wrote:
To quote an old instructor of mine: "Pilots are simply heavy equipment operators wearing ties!"

Very well said.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:53 pm

golden hawk wrote:
Corporate Pilot wrote:
To quote an old instructor of mine: "Pilots are simply heavy equipment operators wearing ties!"

Very well said.

To bad the heavy equipment guys are making 10X our wages, ask DD and LH about the sands....