Great Job IAF,Another crime goes by...Cowards

Pilot_adam · Post by **Pilot_adam** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:35 am

Another crime goes by and the world is watching the massacres in Lebanon silently…

The Israeli Army has just repeated the same ugly crime they committed 10 years ago in the town of Qana killing children, woman and elderly people taking refuge in a basement shelter …

They are claiming throwing leaflets warning people to leave, but hell they have bombed all the roads and even bombed cars traveling on them including buses with white flags carrying civilians…
Please don’t tell me it is another innocent mistake, I can’t take this sh*t no more.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5228224.stm

niss · Post by **niss** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:52 am

There is nothing that can be said for them. Israel will do what ever she can to destroy Hezbollah, the civilian loss is to be expected, why not blame Hezbollah for using the civilians as shields, just like they did the UN outpost?

Vickers vanguard · Post by **Vickers vanguard** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:59 am

Pilot_adam wrote:Another crime goes by and the world is watching the massacres in Lebanon silently…

The Israeli Army has just repeated the same ugly crime they committed 10 years ago in the town of Qana killing children, woman and elderly people taking refuge in a basement shelter …

They are claiming throwing leaflets warning people to leave, but hell they have bombed all the roads and even bombed cars traveling on them including buses with white flags carrying civilians…
Please don’t tell me it is another innocent mistake, I can’t take this sh*t no more.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5228224.stm

I hope with all my heart that they will dearly pay for what they have done..............in this life or the other one.

Guido · Post by **Guido** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:31 am

niss wrote:There is nothing that can be said for them. Israel will do what ever she can to destroy Hezbollah, the civilian loss is to be expected, why not blame Hezbollah for using the civilians as shields, just like they did the UN outpost?

Yes, yes, Niss, we know - Israel has no blame whatsoever. Killing innocents is obviously only a one way street.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:45 am

You're not even safe from israelis in an ambulance!

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:57 am

niss wrote:There is nothing that can be said for them. Israel will do what ever she can to destroy Hezbollah, the civilian loss is to be expected, why not blame Hezbollah for using the civilians as shields, just like they did the UN outpost?

We can also say that Hezbollah will do whatever it can to destroy Israel. So if Hezbollah "accidently" hit a building in Israel, wiping out 34 kids, would those civilian losses "be expected" as well?

I think Israel is making a strategic mistake in considering a civilian population as "terrorists" and therefore fair game. The ones that were neutral before will most certainly be taking sides after watching friends and family being killed.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:14 am

And this was all started because hezbollah captured IDF forces that were in Lebanon... They wern't even on Israeli land.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbo ... diers.html (from the Hindustan times)

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html (asia times)

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:42 am

Okay, the shells the kids were "tagging" were not "smart bombs or missles."

So now mr artillery man loads and fires, it doesn't discriminate...

It sucks but what can you do...

niss · Post by **niss** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:15 am

It doesnt matter anymore, Israel will do what ever it takes to secure her safety, anyone who gets in the way unfortunatly wont stand much chance, they were warned, if they didnt want to leave no one but their problem, if they couldnt leave than it was unfortunate.

Remember 1 thing, if you are concerned about your safety, no one elses matters. Its a sad reality but if you are Israel, it doesnt matter how many lebanese civilians die in the end, as long as Hezbollah is stopped. You try to keep the civilian casualties low but they can not be allowed to get in the way of destroying Hezbollah, and I support that 100%.

Just remember, its always better you than me.

Masada hasheni lo tipol!

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:24 am

I think that Israel needs to take a step back for a second to look at themselves... Because it seems to me that they are purporting the use of terrorism (making them terrorists) more then Hezbollah. But that is just my opinion.

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:36 am

Mac wrote: I think Israel is making a strategic mistake in considering a civilian population as "terrorists" and therefore fair game. The ones that were neutral before will most certainly be taking sides after watching friends and family being killed.

Israel does not consider the Lebanese citizens to be "terrorists" by any means. They consider Hezbollah to be terrorists, and they are. The problem for Israel is that Hezbollah members are hiding amongst the civilian population- they fire their rockets from civilian areas, their hideouts are in civilian neighborhoods, etc etc. Israel needs to put an end to Hezbollah, but they face a tremendous challenge because in order for them to take Hezbollah out, they have to work around the fact that these cowards are hiding amongst the civilians. It might be better to send in ground troops, but that too involves a lot of risks from Israel's standpoint.

Apollo · Post by **Apollo** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:25 pm

Israel is only making it's own situation worse. For every *hezbollah* militant that they kill, two more spring up, and for every civilian they kill 4 more become militants.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:52 pm

What exactly are these "rockets" being fired at Israel? I would like to see a picture of one. Anyone have a link. I am not interested in the propoganda pictures of the destruction, I am interested in actually seeing the hardware.

Maybe once we all have had a look at these 'rockets' we will be better able to assess the response of Israel.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:09 pm

I was reading in a news magazine (can't remember which one) about the artillery rockets Hezbollah uses. They aren't some homemade crap. They get them from Iran (via Syria). They are Soviet built, or derivative, military artillery rockets.

Here's a look at some of Iran's arsenal.

If I remember correctly from the article, Hezbollah has a few hundred of the Haseb, and smaller numbers of Arash and Fadjr-3.

The also have truck mounted launchers which are easily disguised by placing a canvas rag-top on the bed. That's why the Israelis are targeting any trucks moving in the south. This is a larger version, the ones Hezbollah are using are smaller, easier to conceal.

I don't know if I'm the only one noticing this, but the news seems to make more of soldiers deaths than civilians. Everytime you hear about casualty reports they are divided into soldiers, militants and civilians, usually in that order. Interesting that a soldier is worth more than the people they protect (or kill).

JakeYYZ · Post by **JakeYYZ** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:26 pm

These rockets are unguided weapons fired by Hizb'allah at entire towns and not specific targets.

Tubthumper · Post by **Tubthumper** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:36 pm

So, Apollo, let me get this right. You think Israel should just sit there twiddle it's thumbs while even if they never fired a shot at anyone, Hezbolah and Hamas would STILL fire ammo into Isreali territory. Well we know whos side you're on. Ever ask an arab why Israel is hated, even before they became nation? The excuses for it go deep. You can't go to the UN (United Nothing) for any help in this issue because they are USE-LESS. Any civilians who stick around any locations Hezbolah uses do so at their own peril. EVERY round of ammo fired in Hezbolahs/Hamas' direction is well deserved, don't mess with Israel. If Egypt, Syria, and Jordan (even combined) couldn't destroy Israel, then Hamas and Hezbolah can't do it either (that's why they need Iran's help), but they will reap what they've sown, unfortunately at the expense of civilians who are in the way. Israel's existance requires a fight to exist, and let them kick ass at it.
It's not like most other wars where a country can 'lose' a war, but still exist afterward. France lost to Germany, but still exists intact. Germany and Japan lost the war, but still exist and are properous. There are many other examples, but this is not the case with Israel. If they lose, they will be wiped off the map completely.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:44 pm

Absolutly right Jake. Most people think of toys when they hear rocket. In military terminology, an unguided, powered, projectile is usually refered to as a rocket, where as guided are called missiles. These are no little play things, The bulk of the rockets being used are meant for massed fire against soft targets (read troops). They have projectile (ball-bearing)/fragmentation warheads. They are specifically designed to kill people.

This is part of the reason that relativly few people are dying in the Israeli towns being hit. The warheads are not powerful enough to cause a lot of secondary fragmentation (like a building getting blown up and the concrete/steel causing more damage). People in a house next to the one that gets directly hit are not as likely to be killed. (Israeli bulidings are usually pretty solid from what I understand. Simply because of the threat of attack.) So if there are no people in the immediate vacinity of where the rocket lands, there is a RELATIVLY small amount of damage.

The reason Israel is causing so many more deaths is that their weapons are far more accurate, powerful, and are launched when a target is found. While they may not be as deadly (or precise) as Israeli weapons, Hezbollahs rockets are far more sinister.

Israel is actually targeting specific things, which happen to be near civilians. Hezbollah is launching an indiscriminant attack on a city, hoping to kill civilians. None of this makes the result ok, but you can see the difference in intent.

niss · Post by **niss** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:06 pm

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:28 pm

The images I got from a reliable source do not show such a sophisticated rocket or system. Where is the truth, do you suppose?

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:28 pm

C-HRIS wrote:
Mac wrote: I think Israel is making a strategic mistake in considering a civilian population as "terrorists" and therefore fair game. The ones that were neutral before will most certainly be taking sides after watching friends and family being killed.
Israel does not consider the Lebanese citizens to be "terrorists" by any means. They consider Hezbollah to be terrorists, and they are. The problem for Israel is that Hezbollah members are hiding amongst the civilian population- they fire their rockets from civilian areas, their hideouts are in civilian neighborhoods, etc etc. Israel needs to put an end to Hezbollah, but they face a tremendous challenge because in order for them to take Hezbollah out, they have to work around the fact that these cowards are hiding amongst the civilians. It might be better to send in ground troops, but that too involves a lot of risks from Israel's standpoint.

The Israeli Justice Minister has recently stated otherwise.

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2006/07/27/ ... h-lebanon/

niss · Post by **niss** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:19 pm

Trey Kule post your pics and well have a look, dont forget they are getting much more sophisticated daily.

Mac, get the whole quote not just an excerpt that can be taken out of context. There you go, read on.

SNIP) A high-level Middle East conference in Rome also ended in disagreement Wednesday, with most European leaders urging an immediate cease-fire but the U.S. willing to give Israel more time to punish the guerrilla group.

Justice Minister Haim Ramon, who is close to Olmert, said Israel interpreted this as a green light to continue its offensive.

“We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world ... to continue the operation, this war, until Hezbollah won’t be located in Lebanon and until it is disarmed,” he told Israel Army Radio. “Everyone understands that a victory for Hezbollah is a victory for world terror.”

Ramon said the Israeli air force must bomb villages before ground forces enter, suggesting this would help prevent Israeli casualties in the future.

Asked whether entire villages should be flattened, he said: “These places are not villages. They are military bases in which Hezbollah people are hiding and from which they are operating.”

Civilians remain in villages
Ramon said Israel has given civilians in southern Lebanon sufficient warning to leave the area, and that those left behind should be considered Hezbollah sympathizers. “All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah,” he said.

However, it is believed that civilians remain in these communities. A Red Cross doctor who visited the town of Bint Jbail before the Israelis advanced on it this week said the majority of residents had fled, but a considerable number were taking cover in schools and other places.

Ramon said the military should not hold back.

“What we need to activate in south Lebanon is tremendous firepower before ground forces enter,” he said. “Our great advantage against Hezbollah is firepower, not hand-to-hand combat.”

Report: Military wants broader offensive
The Israeli daily Haaretz said military officials have criticized the government for not ordering a broader ground offensive, which they said would give troops an advantage over Hezbollah. Several thousand Israeli soldiers are currently fighting against several hundred Hezbollah gunmen. Military commanders also demanded greater air support of the ground troops, Haaretz said.

One of the aims of the ground offensive is to push Hezbollah out of a 1.2-mile strip along the Israeli-Lebanese border to prevent future attacks by the militia. However, Israel’s offensive has failed to stop Hezbollah rocket attacks on northern Israel.

Israel’s offensive has killed 423 people in Lebanon since the crisis began July 12. It erupted when Hezbollah fighters staged a cross-border attack that led to the deaths of eight Israeli soldiers and left two captured.

Fifty-two Israelis have been killed in the fighting, including 34 soldiers. (SNIP)

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:42 pm

Read a good article in the New York Times today about the rockets being fired at Isreal. The biggest ones that Hezbollah has are of the soviet Katyusha design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha

They also have a bunch of smaller ones like the Qassam and others. This page seems fairly comprehensive:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/we ... 0279.shtml

Shlomo · Post by **Shlomo** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:52 pm

1996
The Qana shelling took place on April 18, 1996 in Qana, a village located
southeast of Tyre, Lebanon. Amid heavy fighting between the Israeli
Defense Forces and Hezbollah during "Operation Grapes of Wrath", a Fijian UNIFIL compound in the village was shelled by Israeli artillery. Around 800 Lebanese civilians had taken refuge there to escape the fighting, of whom 106 were killed and around 116 others injured. Four UNIFIL soldiers were also seriously injured. The event has sometimes been referred to as the Qana massacre, for example by Human Rights Watch and the BBC.

http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/i ... _child.jpg

Robert Fisk's reporting from Qana 1996.

10 years later...

2006
More than 30 children died in the Qana attack - the deadliest Israeli raid since hostilities began on 12 July when two Israeli soldiers were seized.

- Lebanon's health minister says about 750 people - mainly civilians - have been killed by Israeli action.

- A total of 51 Israelis, including at least 18 civilians, have been killed in the conflict.

iskhaelis are in Lebanon, on Lebanese soil, and always have been.

But of course, iskhael is defending itself.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:04 pm

niss wrote:if you are Israel, it doesnt matter how many lebanese civilians die in the end, as long as Hezbollah is stopped... they can not be allowed to get in the way of destroying Hezbollah, and I support that 100%.

niss the attitude you support is unjust and criminal. You should go sign up and fight alongside your countrymen if you feel so strongly about it. Take your nationalism and @#$! yourself.

I don't like terrorists - I don't like countries that don't believe and adhere to international laws - I am disgusted with the position our government has taken over this war - I am disgusted with this war.

Codemn all acts of violence against civilians - on both sides - Do not take a side or be neutral but decry what is wrong.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:29 pm

Niss,

I don't see where the full article changed the context of what he said.

The Israeli's are stating essentially that warning was given to get out, so if you are still there, tough shit. The fact that the Israeli's bombed out bridges and roads and tagged a few civilian vehicles trying to get out may have convinced more than a few people to stay.

Killing a few hundred civilians (mostly kids), wiping out the infrastructure of a country that was just getting on it's feet is in no way a "measured response". War crimes would be a more appropriate term.

Great Job IAF,Another crime goes by...Cowards

Great Job IAF,Another crime goes by...Cowards

Re: Great Job IAF,Another crime goes by...Cowards