Martin Tamme re: Teplitsky

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:16 am

Many of the non-seniority/labour issues that pilots face these days cannot be addressed effectively unions. Take ACPA's ongoing ULH fight w.r.t. extended duty and augmentation. Granted, there is no other carrier in Canada currently competing in that arena, but duty time, fatigue, and augment issues must be fought on a national/regulatory level to prevent the competitive disadvantage that would result from company specific restrictions.
For every hour that ACPA wins as a reduction from the CARS, it's another hour, competitively, that WJ and Jazz, and CJ etc effectively gain in pilot productivity. Additionally, if we were to attempt to align our flight and duty time limitations with the US (1000 annually) or Europe (900 annually), it has to be by lobbying TC through a non-paritsan professional group- not a labour organization. If Air Canada pilots are the only ones flying 900 hrs a year, while everyone else is doing 1000-1200, competitively it's a no go, even though it would probably make the airline safer.
In fact, on principle I think management at every company would even agree that there are fatigue issues to deal with these days, but are prevented from agreeing in public (and negotiations) due to the competitive productivity problems that arise. If a company were to be assured that everyone was to be affected simultaneously by new, lower FTL's (as an example), they would surely be on board.

This is the right direction and I would fully support a national association! Good luck Martin.

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:02 pm

ACPA needs to realize that the lawsuit is a personal matter between a select group of members. For whatever reason, they have taken ownership of this and will not negotiate on behalf of the majority until this matter is off the table. ( must be nice to know that if someone sues me, ACPA and its members will come to my aid ) a bit unrealistic!

ACPA has taken on the lawsuit as their own because when the suit was launched, all the ACPA reps were involved in the suit. Now that the OAC has been diluted by new hires and CDN pilots, it is not as cut and dry as it was before with respect to ACPA and the lawsuit.

Must suck to be a non OAC pilot and knowing that your dues are being spent on a personal lawsuit that was the result of the OAC pilots actions.

exbengal · Post by **exbengal** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:34 pm

Jaques Strappe wrote:Exbengal

I believe the hearing in front of Teplitski was solely to do with upholding the terms of the collective agreement. I can assure you that the members of ACPA would be stunned if it were announced that ACPA was bringing back the RJ to mainline.

There are many of us at mainline that are somewhat sympathetic to the whole process. When I say that, I mean, we don't hate Jazz or its pilots, many of us have roots there. We would much rather see a unified group, working together.

The way I see it, there is a minority of each group within each camp that are so twisted and bitter, they would rather see the demise of the two groups than a solution. We are seeing this within the mainline ranks with a small splinter group that are insistent on shooting more bullets into the dead horse named Keller. I have been demanding that ACPA put this to a vote ( to allow democratic process ) once and for all to put an end to it. So far nothing. So I am aware that both sides are not particularly trustworthy. ( as do most members )

ACPA needs to realize that the lawsuit is a personal matter between a select group of members. For whatever reason, they have taken ownership of this and will not negotiate on behalf of the majority until this matter is off the table. ( must be nice to know that if someone sues me, ACPA and its members will come to my aid ) a bit unrealistic! This has to be resolved and I don't see it happening until ACPA distances itself. Amazing how democracy disappears in the name of politics.

Martin is probably correct in the fact that you can change the name of a union but still have the same players. Therefore, the obvious solution is to fire all the players and put new recruits on the bench that don't have a particular hate on for the other team.

Hi Jaques, what I'm complaining about is acpa goes in front of Teplitsky complaining about rj's but on the other hand the some of the Airbuses were supposed to leave, saying they were to loose alot of jobs, hence acpa got to keep the emj's.

Don't get me wrong here, I don't want to fly the emj or airbus for dash wages, however the company can at anytime got in front of Teplitsky with a better "business plan for jazz" and guess what, all your negotiate concessions for scope don't mean jack.

Milton has already said publicly about an IPO for mainline, and that he and Schwartz are again best buds. That is not good news for any of us.

Martin Tamme points out that its the same old guard in alpa, but I don't see anyone in alpa trying to go in front of Teplitsky to capture more flying. I'm positive Brian Shurry and the rest would like to have a unified group.

I've already said this but if acpa really wanted a solution then I'm sure its there, going in front of Teplitsky just moves the whole process backwards, I've got about than 20 years left, and I for one don't feel like going in front of some self appointed arbitrator every time we (the whole group) has to negotiate. If we were a unified group the first thing I'd do is get rid of him.

As far as the lawsuit, there is a lot that acpa isn't telling their members about. You would be surprised at the number of acpa members Ive had a chat with in the j/s or terminal who knew absolutely nothing about the Teplitsky hearings, hopefully its over and done with sooner than later.
Take care.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:41 am

Exbengal

I agree with you whole heartedly. It reminds me of when my first wife and I got divoirced. We remained friends and very civily, divided things up, came to an agreement between ourselves and then went to the lawyers office to make it all legal. Thats when the fun began. Luckily, we kept eachother informed when the sharks tried to turn it up a notch and walked in demanding it be done the way we wanted it done.

The membership needs to take a more active role and be informed of what is going on. The lawyers will keep yhis going on indefinetly for their sake. We need to put pressure on our MECs to make this a priority. As you, I have 20 years left and I don't want some arbitrator deciding my fate all the time.

YULdude · Post by **YULdude** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:33 am

exbengal wrote:Don't get me wrong here, I don't want to fly the emj or airbus for dash wages, however the company can at anytime got in front of Teplitsky with a better "business plan for jazz" and guess what, all your negotiate concessions for scope don't mean jack.

Xbengal,

Here's is where you are not 100% correct. Teplitsky can only decide (if we can't) where additional CRJs and EMB175s go, that's it. He doesn't have a say in anything bigger than a RJ-900 or EMB-175. (i.e. 190, 320 etc...)

exbengal wrote:Martin Tamme points out that its the same old guard in alpa, but I don't see anyone in alpa trying to go in front of Teplitsky to capture more flying. I'm positive Brian Shurry and the rest would like to have a unified group.

No you're right, ALPA only went behind our back with Calin R, and helped take some flying from us in early 2003 whilst in the early stages of CCAA. Both sides are from from blame here...

Long Keel · Post by **Long Keel** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:02 am

YUL DUDE,

You are 100% correct. Neither side is all sinners or saints. We are out of CCAA and have a collective agreement each in force. Teplitsky cannot go and take Jazz dashes to Georgian, or Mainline Embraer's to Jazz.

Again, this is like the middle east. Until both sides can accept the status quo, no matter how ugly, then move forward we are collectively screwed. I'm glad ACPA is extending the olive branch, and won't let the posts of a few diehards on either side of the fence sway my personal feelings.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:55 am

Long Keel wrote: I'm glad ACPA is extending the olive branch,

LongKeel

While I agree with most of your post, don't think for a second that ACPA is extending an olive branch. Thats like someone saying "Hi I am from Transport Canada, I am here to help." Having been a member of ACPA since its birth, I can honestly say that members of ACPA need to be just as suspicious as ALPA when it comes to their dealings.

Kent Wilson and the pension is a classic example. Probably cost us huge in CCAA because he didn't want Defined Contribution, didn't matter what the membership wanted. That is why it never went to a vote. Been to an ACPA meeting lately? They have moles in the audience placed there to bring forward motions and have it seconded. Not saying that ALPA is any different but at times, the membership needs to speak up and tell the union what to do, not the other way around.

exbengal · Post by **exbengal** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:57 am

sorry I'm missing something here, trying to reduce the jazz workforce is extending an olive branch.

I can think of a million other ways of soothing a strained relationship.

What exactly are you talking about Longkeel?

Long Keel · Post by **Long Keel** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:47 pm

exbengal,

If I was misunderstood my apologies. I was talking about this. Here is the quote from one of our ACPA reps, Martin Tamme whose name is in this threads title.

The present ACPA MEC wants to start a Professional Association of the likes what doctors & lawyers have. We want to have a body that represents all pilots on a universal level, but that each group remains autonomous at the local level.

We agree that as pilots, we have numerous principles in common, but our downfall is that we don't stick together. History shows that air operators have taken advantage of our disfunctional group, and as a result, our profession keeps spiralling downwards.

This problem is solely not limited to this country, but also globally. Globally, we have formed ASAP (Association of Star Alliance Pilots), which meets on a regular basis to deal with some of the problems that we individually face by sharing information.

Unfortunately, locally we have nothing. We want pilots to be respected in this country; we want pilots to have a voice with TC & in the government. If we don't do anything, our profession will go the way of the train engineer. We want to stop pilots from having to prostitute themselves out to the lowest bidder; working in unsafe environments; and forced to pay $30,000 just to have a job.

In order to accomplish this, we need all pilots associations in this country to come together. Whether it be Air Canada, Jazz, WestJet, CanJet, Air Transat, Skyservice,... we pilots have to start working together for the greater good of our profession.

The Jazz pilots recently had an election that resulted with a new MEC. The WestJet Pilots Association also recently elected a new president. CanJet recently unionised with a new president. Given that the players are all new, some people regard us as the next generation. We have no skeletons in the closet, and share no animosity towards each other. We are attempting to start working together for the greater good of the pilot's profession in this country.

Presently, we are taking baby steps to see what we can do to help pilots in general. The first project is to see if we can get our jumpseat back.

JS,

As far as motions go, it doesn't matter what is forwarded or seconded. It is whats passed that matters. Each member can go to the mike and speak for or against should they choose. My concern is when the MEC chooses to ignore motions passed. Democracy isn't pretty but it beats the alternative.

Again, until we are ready to accept todays reality and move forward there is little chance of positive change. I have a little over twenty years left and I would rather spend my energies improving the quality of life for our profession at the corporations expense via improved regs and contract, then by raiding any other companies/partners work. Likewise if Jazz can accept the current status quo of 75 seats and below with the current ratios in place then just maybe we can work on improving duty regs, jumpseats, pensions, incomes etc. Any energy we waste on each other only makes the corporate boys smile.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:38 pm

As far as motions go, it doesn't matter what is forwarded or seconded. It is whats passed that matters. Each member can go to the mike and speak for or against should they choose. My concern is when the MEC chooses to ignore motions passed. Democracy isn't pretty but it beats the alternative.

To do that, you need members at the meeting there, which has been my point for the entire thread, you need to get involved, if you leave it up to ACPA or ALPA it will be fucked up for another 20 years, guaranteed. If a fraction of the amount of energy spent beating the Keller thing was spent on this issue, we would be light years ahead as a professional pilot group.

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:20 pm

Been to an ACPA meeting lately? They have moles in the audience placed there to bring forward motions and have it seconded. Not saying that ALPA is any different

ALPA is different, we don't get to vote on anything!

exbengal · Post by **exbengal** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:32 pm

Long Keel, In my opinion, unless we have one list and one union we will always be the contributors of Miltons 47 million stock option plan.

Do you really think the Jazz pilots will continue to be happy with status quo?

Did you know that ACE has asked alpa on their rates for cargo?

YUL DUDE pointed out that Jazz was limited to 75 seats, how long do you think that would last?

Working on benifits,jumpseats, or whatever improvements you wanted would be alot easier with one union one seniority list don't you agree?

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:27 am

Jaques Strappe wrote:Been to an ACPA meeting lately? They have moles in the audience placed there to bring forward motions and have it seconded.

Have you been to one lately?

At the January 31st Toronto General Council meeting (for the YYZ Based pilots), 173 YYZ pilots attended. Several motions were presented, but only 2 passed.

At the March 16th Toronto General Council meeting, over 400 pilots attended (yes, 400 out of a base of 1600). 5 motions were presented: 4 passed almost unanimously and 1 was defeated.

On April 20th, a Toronto General Council meeting was held in Alliston (just east of Orangeville), because those members from Barrie were complaining that they had too far to drive to attend a meeting at the airport. 93 pilots attended (mostly those from the Barrie region). 4 motions were presented and were passed unanimously.

The YYZ LEC has(is) acted(acting) on all of these motions. No, we did not have any moles in the audience. Do you think that an elected body would plant a mole in the audience to support these types of motions?

Internal Accounting Control and Governance Review

Whereas the Toronto General Council passed a motion asking the Toronto LEC to ask the MEC to perform a control and governance audit review;

Be it resolved that the Toronto LEC ask the MEC to retain the services of a consulting firm to undertake an internal accounting control and governance review, and report back to the membership within 120 days with their findings, observations and recommendations.

P.S. The next YYZ General Council meeting is being held on September 18th at 10:00. Are you going to attend?

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:04 am

Martin

You and I both know why attendance is so low at ACPA meetings. It is because the membership feels, why bother? The outcome has already been determined. The only reason there was an attendance of 400 in March was because everyone was so stunned with Teplitskis' decision after the 777 vote.

Yet another classic example of why we need to treat the problem, not the symptom. You guys all think Exbengal is bitter but he speaks the truth. Unless this issue is resolved, the whipsaw will kill us all and what adds insult to injury is the unions will do it themselves, with or without Milton.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:24 pm

At the same time, at a different Washington location, ALPA held a different kind of conference. It brought together all of the major ALPA carriers, along with ACPA, APA (American Airlines), Southwest Airline Pilots Association and several other independent US pilot unions, to informally discuss the feasibility of a shared continental bargaining strategy in the post-bankruptcy era. These unions will work together to raise the bar for all pilots. Full credit should be given to Captain Duane Woerth, ALPA's President, for taking this important first step, and to all of the other unions who attended. More round-table communication sessions are planned.

This is from a recent ACPA newsletter.

There's hope. Maybe.

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:29 pm

Maybe you should also add the next 2 paragraphs for all to see

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:31 am

Martin Tamme wrote:Maybe you should also add the next 2 paragraphs for all to see

OK Marty, here ya go...

"The decision to call this conference is a vindication of Captain Kent Wilson's fundamental philosophy. He has become well-known in international pilot circles for tirelessly advocating unity amongst pilots regardless of union affiliation. Too often, pilot organizations have been more concerned with their own internal issues, rather than addressing the need to work together in areas of common interest.

This event suggests the feasibility of a Federation of Pilots here in Canada. Many pilot groups are proud of their independence. But this should not be a barrier to all Canadian pilot associations coming together voluntarily, to collaborate in a "big-tent" environment. Together, they could share experience, information, strategy, and present a united voice for the piloting profession in Canada."

From a recent ACPA newsletter by the president.

abflyguy · Post by **abflyguy** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:25 am

I agree that we need to have a federation/association/whatever to ensure that all pilots have a voice in Canada. I also think that ACPA and ALPA will never get together in this. There seems to be too much animosity between them with a total disregard for the other when it comes to negotiations.
The latest from ACPA "reductions at AC must be matched by ones at Jazz", if they truly wanted to work together they could have worded it "if their are reductions at AC there must be no increse at Jazz" That way it keeps Jazz from getting laid off if things get bad at AC and protects AC jobs from going to Jazz. This kind of stuff should be done all the time where one group thinks about the other when wording their contracts. Unfortunately as the orignal language says if AC gets screwed so should Jazz and that will cause way to much animosity for them to get together.

It of course would be the scariest thing that could happen to the management of both companies if they did. Oh I dream of the day when ACPA and ALPA get together and all management would wet their collective pants!

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:21 pm

"The decision to call this conference is a vindication of Captain Kent Wilson's fundamental philosophy. He has become well-known in international pilot circles for tirelessly advocating unity amongst pilots regardless of union affiliation. Too often, pilot organizations have been more concerned with their own internal issues, rather than addressing the need to work together in areas of common interest.

The latest from ACPA "reductions at AC must be matched by ones at Jazz"

Hmmmmmmm...............