training bond legality

yak driver · Post by **yak driver** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:42 pm

Wanna get rid of training bonds? If Transport Canada made PPC's non transferable, that would work pretty darn well wouldn't it.

More Hawker Than Sidley · Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:22 am

I agree with rd1331 regarding your actions in signing any document. If TC finds out (Some Employers WILL contact TC) re: booze, emotional etc. etc. guess what they will do...and no doubt your Medical will be pulled. One of the keys to the contract signing situation is that IF the company is not promising YOU an equivalent contract as to what they are asking of YOU...then its not really binding in a court of law;in other words they are hiring you as a safe, efficient, dependable,able- working pilot and in return the same has to apply to them re: safe,efficient,dependable, A/C and wages etc. IMHO.

dream chaser · Post by **dream chaser** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:19 am

Just to remind you all, saying your drunk, emotional (boo hoo) or under duress is not going to work for any kind of training bond. Do you all forget that a training bond consists of you paying the company money out of your pocket to pay for your training and the company will pay you back. If you flock off, you take the debt with you. Do you think any company will say..."Oh, it's OK that your leaving us for something better. You've been such a great employee so here's the money back that you gave us. And also, we threw in an extra five spot to help you with your moving expenses. Thanks for all the hard work." HAHAHAHA. If you even get your last paycheck your ahead of most. If you give your money up front and decide to leave, that's your perogative. Just don't expect them to give it back. I HATE TRAINING BONDS BUT IT IS THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE.

superiorwhore · Post by **superiorwhore** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:21 am

Bandit- Be a Man and pay up the money, obviously your just a weasel that wants out to go to greener pastures. Your the type of guy that is making these promisary notes and training bonds stay in the industry.

If you where man enough to accept the promisary note to get the job, be man enough to take care of the money owing if you wanna leave.

Think that if you do go to court and weasel out of your promisary note, its a small industry, you don't think that owners aren't going to talk about you. You jump out on someone and go to court, word gets around on how much of a douche you are for what you did. Do you think the next operator will hire you. NOPE. Be a man and save face, pay the remaining amount and part on good terms and now you'll have a reference.

Just food for though

neophyte · Post by **neophyte** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:19 am

Not that it matters any, BUT I am curious as to what Bandit signed for, and when he signed for it.

1. What are you on the hook for? 2. If you end up getting stuck with it, was it worth the risk?

I ask you that now in curiosity, but one has to ask themself that prior to signing on the line.

I hope things work out for you.

Regards,

Neo

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:51 am

Here's my take.

The one and only bond I was asked to sign required me to work for the company in question for two winters as a contract pilot, in exchange for the type rating. After looking over the contract, I told the CP that I couldn't sign it. He asked me why, and I stated that there were no guarentees in the "contract" to protect me, such as minimum flight time/milage or more importantly, money. I asked him how he could expect me to commit two winters to them with no written guarentee of compensation?

He saw my point, asked what I wanted to see written into it. I asked for a guarenteed minimum mileage, and if I surpassed that mileage, an acceptable per mile rate, somethiing like $0.30/sm if I remember. He agreed, and it was written into the contract/bond. That way, I felt protected and he got a specific term of service.

These bonds everyone are signing are one-way deals. You as a pilot should not be accepting deals that are predicated on you being trained for the job you are hired and already licensed to do. By the same token, the company should have assurances that you will be there for a reasonable amount of time justifying their investment. Think about what you're putting a signature to, and make sure you're comfortable with it - if not, don't sign.

As for co-signing personal loans and prepaying for triaining, just to go fly airplanes... you do that you deserve what you get, ie JetsGo.

STL

bandit1 · Post by **bandit1** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:16 pm

look guys, I'm not trying to be a dick and screw a company that wanted to give me a chance.

What happened is that they hired me, trained me and then had me sitting on my ass waiting to start WITH NO PAY.

They couldn't care less about my lack of income situation because of course, I signed a promissory note like all the other suckers and I have to play by their rules because if I don't, I'll owe them 8g's.

I should never have signed it but when I did, the Ops manager said "don't worry about it, we have never made anyone pay it back"

By the way, they just fired the guy 2 weeks ago. Go figure.

So there you have it. Anyone job hunting in the Southern Ontario area, please PM me to find out who this company is so I can give you more info and then you can decide to steer clear if you choose.

What I find crappy about this whole situation is the fact that the promissory note is one-sided. They ask me to respect my end however they don't say that they have to do anything at all. Can that still be legally binding?

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:53 pm

bandit1 wrote:
What happened is that they hired me, trained me and then had me sitting on my ass waiting to start WITH NO PAY.

Well if what you say is true than that line right there is your out, go to the labour board, if a company hires you they are legally binded to pay you, and if you can prove that you haven't got compensation well than this company is screwed.

uber pilot · Post by **uber pilot** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:06 pm

Hey dude and dudesss?? you sign a piece of paper telling the compnsy, go ahead, they are to pay thousands of their revenue dollars for your training!!! then you @#$! off after 3 months. NOW another pilot shows up and offers the same sex for job, first born ect.....for position. Now do you not think the company is the one who is in the driver seat as to WHY they should give some yahoo a chance??? Touch .do the sign....do the time!!

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:45 am

If the company does NOT pay a wage then it does not matter HOW much $$ they sink into you. You have to live, that is your first priority. DO NOT QUIT, YOU WILL ONLY SCREW YOURSELF.

I had a nice big long answer lined up, then I decided to research training bonds and found some interesting information.
From reading http://www.fls-ntf.gc.ca/doc/sub_fb_61.pdf, it would seem that training bonds do not fall under normal law, since there is no provision for them in Canadian law.
Quoting the article (bold added):

8. The terms of training bonds are unilaterally set as a condition of hire. Because they are not negotiated, the terms are usually one-sided and often go beyond the legitimate needs and interests of employers. For example, the sums and duration of the bond may not reflect the employer’s actual training expenditure. And they may offload all of the risk of employment interruption onto the pilot, so that he or she remains liable even where wrongfully dismissed, laid off, or terminated as the consequence of a bankruptcy.

10. It is generally understood that employees unhappy with their terms and conditions of employment have two options: “exit” (seeking alternate employment with more favourable terms) or “voice” (seeking mechanisms to articulate their interests, such as union representation). Effectively, pilots subject to training bonds have neither the real option of “exit” or “voice”.

I would urge you to read through the whole article, after that: Contact a union (CUPE aviation division), contact a lawyer, or even contact ALPA. See what kind of help you can get from people who deal with this type of thing on a regular basis. Focus on the fact that the note is one-sided, and that you are going broke (if you are).

For the ones who think that training bonds are a good thing, I dont totally disagree, and I'm not defending all stupid actions on the part of certain stupid pilots, and I see your point. In this case however it seems like the company was the one that screwed the pilot, not the other way around. This training bond issue has to be dealt with on a case by case basis, you cant just lump them all together.

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:29 pm

@Norskman Well said...thats basicaly what I was going to say...except without the research...good job on the research.

What I would like to see one day would be the creation of a Universal pilot's employement standards organisation. Basicaly A companie can say that they are certified by X organisation. That means that they are a good employer becuase this organization has given them their seal of aproval. Then anyone not on the list would already be blacklist'd & pilots would know to watch their step.

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:42 pm

Justwannafly wrote:What I would like to see one day would be the creation of a Universal pilot's employement standards organisation. Basicaly A companie can say that they are certified by X organisation. That means that they are a good employer becuase this organization has given them their seal of aproval. Then anyone not on the list would already be blacklist'd & pilots would know to watch their step.

Good idea, but dont think it work work in practice.
Y company calls X org to certify them. X org shows up and doesn't want to because of Z reason. Y company pays off (bribes) X org inspector, and Y company gets great rating.