cross country time logging

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:47 pm

Hey all, a while ago there was a thread about what constituted coss country time for the purposes of logging. Someone replied with a CARs reference stating that for flights from point A to point B, flight time should be logged as cross country. I can't find either that thread or the applicable CAR, can anyone help me with either?

Also, that thread concluded that there was no official consensus on whether cross-country time on a flight with the same end-point counted (e.g. time to and from the practice area). If anyone has insight on this beyond "it depends on which TC inspector you get" I'd appreciate it. FWIW, I had a few hours of this kind of xcnty time in my PTR when I applied for my PPL and TC didn't say boo. I'm planning to call TC and get an opinion on this that I can put a name to in case the issue comes up when I apply for further licenses in the future, so I'd like to get all my guns lined up before I pick up the phone.

Aeros · Post by **Aeros** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:04 pm

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=20990

That's the earlier thread.

As far as the flight time references I am assuming that they were talking about the requirements for each licence or permit. They are all outlined in CAR Standard 421 for the appropriate licence or permit (check in the experience sections). In these cases TC makes reference to X hours cross-country flight time.

The big issues that causes the concerns is that TC has no definition for cross-country.

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:42 pm

I dont think XC time has to be from one airport to another. I have quite a lot of XC time going from 1 point to another, low level, not landing at either. Its exercise 23d I think, diversions. TC never complained about me or the 100's of other people who went to confed and logged it this way.

ST

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:43 pm

Yep, like I said above, there's been tons of 1.5 hr training flights where i've logged 0.4 hours of XC on the way to and from the practice area, no problems there. On the other hand, the CARs allegedly state that if I fly from A to B I can log the whole flight time (there's no reference for this in the other thread). So the question is where do you draw the line? What portion of the flight has to be XC for me to be able to log the whole thing including taxiing as XC?

If someone could find a CARs reference for using flight time I'll cite that when I call TC, and post the answer they give here.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:44 pm

As far as I know, there is no CAR that defines xc time. Seems crazy, but its a wild wild world man.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:14 am

You can log anything you want as cross-country, because there is no regulation that says you can't.

Any time the aircraft moves (circuits, taxiing) it is by definition moving across the country.

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:29 pm

This is what I have heard from a couple differant flight schools and they all said the same thing, NFI where they got it from.

Flight must be 25nm from departure point and you must touch the ground somewhere other than the departure point.

So flights to the practise area wouldn't count unless you did a touch and go at another A/P 25nm away from your departure A/P.

YYC was great because if we went to do circuits in Beisker we could count it as a X-Country.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:10 pm

These flightschools are full of doo doo. There are no CARs or even entries in the AIM that say such things.

I too hav heard these things. I suspect someone made it up (US rules maybe?) and told someone. This seemed reasonable to them so they took it somewhere else and it carries on.

If you do a DR execise as a student would it be reasonable to call it xc time? I would think so.

If you take off at one airport, fly through the CZ of one or more airports and land at another ( less than 25nm distance) is that xc time? I would think so.

Of course what I think is of no importance. Since there are no rules for this do as you think is right.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:09 pm

Yep Lurch, those flight schools may have a definition that works for them, but I had more than a few hours of cross country time in my PPL PTR that consisted of going to/from a practice area that wasn't even 25nm away (close but not quite), let alone touching down at another airport. Now I know the fact that TC approved it on this occasion doesn't mean they'll approve it the next, but it has been approved before so that's something.

Slappy the Squirrel · Post by **Slappy the Squirrel** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:55 pm

I think if you went to do circuits at another airfield then only the time spent to get there, and then the time to get back, should be logged as xctry time, or the time you spent navigating from Point A to Point B. You can't honestly include the circuits done there as xctry time. Although I spose you can legally.

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:47 pm

When I was doing fire patrols, I would fly a 150 nm round trip, landing at the same place I departed from.

I logged it as x-c considering I'm using all the navigation skills to make that route

Anti

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:50 am

I have to add my two cents.

First of all, as long as you met the minimum X-country requirements for your license, I doubt TC would say anything as it would not be of concern to them...their are 7,487,222 TC people on this website so mabye one of them will confirm that.

Secondly, regultations aside, do you really think that flying back and forth to a practice area day after day is X-country time? Its that kind of thinking that results in more and more narrow defining of all the requirements, rules, and regulations with the resulting confusion.

Comply with the regs but use some common sense. If you are looking for a job and submit your logbook you may find the people hiring not only dont consider it x-country time, but take it as a sign that you will be one of the "7 mininutes is .2" pilots...

cyxe · Post by **cyxe** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:15 pm

trey kule wrote:
Secondly, regultations aside, do you really think that flying back and forth to a practice area day after day is X-country time? Its that kind of thinking that results in more and more narrow defining of all the requirements, rules, and regulations with the resulting confusion.

Comply with the regs but use some common sense.

Exactly

Yes, getting in your plane and starting the motor, taxiing for a run-up, changing your mind and parking again, is "travelling across the country", as is flying to the practice area for the 673rd time...but gimme a break...

IMO, if you're buzzing back and forth to the practice area, 17.3nm away, and have done it so many times you could do it while having a seizure in your sleep, thats not "cross country time"....isn't the point of that column in your logbook supposed to be to demonstrate how much time you have actually applying some reasonable frontal lobe navigation skills with the intent of finding a destination? Clearly some here will disagree, but somehow flying back and forth to a training area that you've been to a gazillion times doesn't count.

OK maybe I'm just jealous, because I'm missing out of 100's of hours of XC because I've never logged the time to and from a training area as XC

C-GPFG · Post by **C-GPFG** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:13 am

Lurch wrote: Flight must be 25nm from departure point and you must touch the ground somewhere other than the departure point.

So if one flies out 26NM and has to return to the departure airport, it is not cross-country?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:19 pm

flying back and forth to a training area that you've been to a gazillion times doesn't count

So, if you've flown from say Toronto to Montreal a "gazillion" times, that doesn't count as cross-country time, merely by virtue of familiarity?

I say again: log whatever you want as "cross-country" time, including taxi time. Transport Canada doesn't care. We know that because it hasn't bothered to define it - it has much more important things to do, I guess.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:38 pm

Hedley wrote:

So, if you've flown from say Toronto to Montreal a "gazillion" times, that doesn't count as cross-country time, merely by virtue of familiarity?

apples to oranges. It was not the familiarity issue I was addressing.
It was that you are flying a few miles and back to the same airport. I am not going to get into more details of the differences because I dont want the argument with all those who seem to think a log book entry is experience. I agree with the you can log anything...Transport is only concerned that you meet the required X-Country time with regard to distance, landings, etc., and if you meet that requirement they dont seem to care what else you log.

My comment about future employers who may see it as an attitude issue still stands.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:03 pm

to the same airport

So, would you consider the round-the-world non-stop trip of the Voyager by Jeanna Yeager and Dick Rutan to NOT be cross-country because they happened to take off and land at the same airport?

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:03 pm

TC would, if they didn't like them- by the sounds of things.

-istp

Disclaimer: Any postings on AvCanada by ISTP are in jest, and are not meant to be taken seriously. ISTP has nothing but the utmost respect for Transport Canada in their unending pursuits of Canadian aviation safety and profitability of aviation industry businesses.

cyxe · Post by **cyxe** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

Hedley wrote: So, if you've flown from say Toronto to Montreal a "gazillion" times, that doesn't count as cross-country time, merely by virtue of familiarity?

I'm not debating obvious XC trips, regardless of how familiar they are (one city to another). Nor does the same airport issue matter in my opinion. The issue should be whether or not a pilot could defend that the time as logged really provided the experience claimed - i.e. cross country navigation experience. I've had this debate many times before, and after 500 cups of coffee many of us still disagree. No different here it seems.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:37 am

Well, I'm glad we sorted that out. I really like it when the electronically combined intellect, the power of the internet, is harnessed in such a useful and productive manner, to resolve such difficult questions that have troubled humanity for so many years.

cyxe · Post by **cyxe** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:25 am

Hedley wrote:Well, I'm glad we sorted that out. I really like it when the electronically combined intellect, the power of the internet, is harnessed in such a useful and productive manner, to resolve such difficult questions that have troubled humanity for so many years.

Well it beats watching the emmy's...

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:23 pm

It's kind of funny actually, because the first full page of my logbook post-PPL contains more cross-country time than all my PPL flights combined, even though I only logged air time on a XC flight. The 0.2 hours to and from the practice area was really just to satisfy TC (and in the end I only needed more dual cross-country, my solo-cross country was over the mins without any nickel-and-diming.

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:16 pm

when i did my CPL it was funny because I had 100+ hours of PIC x-c time, but had to still do 2 hours dual x-c to be eligible for a flight test.

So me and the instructor did a grass strip tour, flying to all the grass strips her and i could think of.

Anti