What makes low timers so expensive?

[Wacko]

I was talking to someone the other day and a good point came up. Many insurance companies will not give you a quote on X amount of time of experience. They take the roster of pilots and do a group insurance. Does anyone actually know the price breakdown (if such a thing exists) of hour/experience? What is it, other than lack of experience, that makes low timers such an undesirable commodity?

Wacko

[helpCX]

No pilot is paid to say yes they are paid to know when to say no. Unfortuently we were all at a time in our careers when we had a really hard time saying no. I know many low time pilots who can fly circles around me and are more book smart then me but they will do anything to prove it. I was just like them.

[Wacko]

But that doesn't answer any part of my question.

[helpCX]

What is it, other than lack of experience, that makes low timers such an undesirable commodity?


I thought I was answering the above part of your question? I have to go study now, sorry I was not more help to you!

[oldtimer]

Because they @#$! up in expensive ways.
According to Rolls Royce in the RR DART manuals, the largest cause of expensive premature removals is low time crews.

[Blue Side Down]

What is it, other than lack of experience, that makes low timers such an undesirable commodity?

Wacko

I think this is a question along the lines of: "What, besides the atmosphere, makes the sky blue?"


Low time means that a pilot has yet to see certain charachter building events. Often times, those events, when they occur, can be expensive. Insurance companies generally know enough and work to minimize losses. Hence is why low time means expensive insurance.

[grimey]

But that doesn't answer any part of my question.

It answers the question in the thread title.

[trey kule]

oldtimer wrote:

Because they @#$! up in expensive ways.

Never heard that before, but it is so apt.

Seems , from the original question posed here, that there may be some difficulty in understanding the value of experience.

[Wacko]

Ok, let me rephrase this a little…

Is there an insurance difference between a guy who has 450 hours and a guy who has 500? If so, what is it? Is there a scale where 0-499hrs = $x/month vs. 500-999 = $x/month?

Also, how is that different if the guy is a FO? Does the above apply at all?

Thanks

[beechy]

But it makes enormous sense to have them instructing! The blind leading the blind.....anyone else see a problem?

I don't think insurance companies understand that everone starts off with no experience....or they do but they are so desperate to have three boats, a plane and a big house that they are affraid to do what they are meant to do, which is pay for the mistakes and accidents of those they insure.

[. ._]

Low timers like myself don't know @#$! all. We're dangerous. We're dangerous and foolish.

THAT'S RIGHT! I AM DANGEROUS!




-istp

[goldeneagle]

I don't think insurance companies understand that everone starts off with no experience....or they do but they are so desperate to have three boats, a plane and a big house that they are affraid to do what they are meant to do, which is pay for the mistakes and accidents of those they insure.

Insurance companies are not in business to pay for your mistakes. Like any other business, they are in the business of making money for thier shareholders. They do this by pooling the risk of incidents over a large group or participants. By using a large enough group, they do indeed collect statistically significant data on the cost of incidents, and how many incidents to expect over thier entire insured group. Then the job is to adjust the premiums such that there is enough revenue to pay out on the incidents, with, a reasonable leftover to cover the cost of running the business, and, a return on investment for shareholders.

One thing that insurance companies learned a long time ago, the risk of incident is proportional to experience when it comes to pilots, so, they lump them all into subgroups based on experience. Historical statisical data shows, the accident frequency in the low time group is disproportionally high. The ratio of accidents compared to the number of candidates covered is much higher than in the more experienced groups, therefore, they must raise the rates for that group. Bottom line, the sum total of premiums from the low time group has to exceed the cost of payouts over that group.

As much as you may dislike the raw data, the accident history statistics dont line. There are more accidents per pilot in that group than the others, referenced by the number of payouts. That's life, deal with it. The reality of the situation, it is much more expensive to insure a low timer than a mid timer. The person's age also plays in. If you are young and low time, there's 2 strikes against you, and, the accident history doesn't lie. Whining isn't going to change that, the only thing that'll change it, is to go out, and build your time till you reach the next level, and do it without an incident. If you add another claim into the low time group in the process, well, you are the problem, not the solution....

[AV8OR]

beechy wrote:

"But it makes enormous sense to have them instructing! The blind leading the blind.....anyone else see a problem?"

So, you're saying all low timers shouldn't be instructors?

Might be safer for them to instead be hired as FOs to gain the expereince? Problem is, how does a low timer get the job without the experience in the first place?

[oldtimer]

AV8TOR made a lot of sense. Problem is convincing the insurance companies and air operators.
Inexperienced pilots make expensive screw-ups. This is why "training" airplanes are so simple and difficult to overstress.
Most air operators want experienced pilots so they do not have to pay for these screw-ups and the resultant higher insurance premiums.
Now, with insurance companies with thousands of employees, how do you decide who is junior and who is experienced and the answer comes up as hours in the log book. This answer is put in a computer and 499 hours is not 500. Period.
Now if we followed AV8TORS line of thinking, take the very junior pilots out of the instructor pool and put them in a two crew environment in Junkstreams and Texas Tampons on night courier runs etc. etc. where the juniors can learn from the experienced pilots without the risk, we would reduce the risk associated with lowtimers. Then let the oldtimers with a jillion hours instruct new pilots. This is the way they do it in some European countries and the Military.
Only problem is money. Pay instructors what they are worth and the cost goes through the roof. Safety does not pay.
As one wise old farmer from Lethbridge once told me, the worlds problems can be divided into 3 main categories, Sex, Money and Dirty Battery Posts.

[just curious]

In other words, insurance companies don't feel that f'n young sparks are very bright. Statistically, they are likely right.

Fortunately for me the last few years, the ones we've hired are.

[beechy]

nope not saying that at all AV8OR. Some are good enough to teach, some have a deep understanding of what is going on hell some even want to teach.

The problem is, instructing is one the only two types of jobs a low timer can get, so they look at it as a neccessary evil. They dont put effort or time into it and as such make really crappy pilots out of thier students....which isn't good for anyone.

Companies around the world have cadet programs and such to help bring young people interested in an aviation career to the airlines. They train them, start off small and work up. We don't seem to have that here...

Its funny because most old people in our country are so uninterested in helping train the youth to do thier jobs that it is going to become very difficult to find qualified people to fill thier positions....hence you see alot of older folk still in the work force.

If the experienced guys working at airlines would take a bunch of low timers and teach them what they know by having them as first officers then this transition would be infinately easier...but then everyone just says that the youth is lazy, they don't want to teach themselves....untrue there are alot of young people who want to learn, but few will take the time to teach them.

You gain experience by doing something. This is what most people don't get. Insurance companies included. They should realize that having 21yr old's teacing flying and making shitty pilots is going to cost them more, encourage older people with realms of experience to teach. But everyone is so god damn greedy that this can't happen.....Hedley is a prime example...bitch bitch bitch about transport, do something about it for gods sakes....young people don't have the money to. Our lives are now not about anything but collecting money, it is sad.

I'll finish by asking simple questions......what was the first job for most commercial licensed pilots back in the 50's and 60's? Was it instructing? or flying a bigger aircraft for small outfits? or large outfits for that matter? How many hours did you have when you started flying for the airlines? What are the crash stats on that time, more crashes or less?

Oh and stop treating the youth of today like we are idiots, you were in this position once too.

[beechy]

BTW you are the ones who made us like this!

[rotorfloat]

The last company I worked at had a few claims recently, so the brokers wanted have a sit down with the owner and pilots. All went well, they didn't cancel the policy.

After that we sprung the question: Why can a 50-hour student jump in a helicopter and do their big solo cross-country, fully insured, BUT as soon as that student gets a fully licensed and wants to do ferry flights for a company, all of the sudden they're too risky and un-insurable????

We caught them off guard, and it was obvious they did not have a canned reply. What they did try to back peddle with was the fact that the student is in a controlled, supervised situation with someone else calling the shots with weather, routes and landings.

Perfect!

"We got this 250 hour guy whom we'd like to do non-revenue ferry flights, and we will control and supervise his routing and flight plans."

We had an answer within a week, and this young guy was approved for non-rev, non-pax flights with no off-airport landings. No premium increase, no deductable increase. The brokers also added that once this guy had the required hours, they'd let the company owner turn him loose.

Sometimes it can be arranged for new pilots to fly with only an increase in the deductable claim. This takes a lot of work between the owner and the insurance company, but it is possible. I doubt that too many owners would want to go to bat knowing that if that pilot screws up, it'll cost them an additional 20K or whatever the increased decuctable is.

[beechy]

It is good to see that a company was willing to do that....

[Wacko]

So does anyone actually know what the $ difference is between a guy who has 200 hours and a guy who has 500? Also, is it like driving, where at 25 the insurance goes down as well?

[trey kule]

Wacko wrote:

So does anyone actually know what the $ difference is between a guy who has 200 hours and a guy who has 500? Also, is it like driving, where at 25 the insurance goes down as well?

Depends. Are you talking about being a captain on a 172 or a learjet?

But to answer your question in true avcanada style: 300 hours.!!!!

Seriously, I dont remember any underwriter mentioning age. Besides the hours however, they do look at the type of flying and the type of airplane.
In short, I think the question is just to general to give you a specific answer.[/quote]

[Cat Driver]

This gem needs to be looked at again:

" Hedley is a prime example...bitch bitch bitch about transport, do something about it for gods sakes...."

So what exactly are we supposed to do aboout a disfunctional out of touch with reality monster like TC?

If someone has a suggestion I would love to hear it.

Hedley is only pointing out the obvious which is TC is run by thugs who are unacountable.

[AntiNakedMan]

And if everyone will direct their attention to the above, you will notice a textbook example of a 'hijack', a post made without any mention of the actual topic at hand.

anti

[Cat Driver]

Hijack?? I only copied what Beechy posted.

You got a problem with that AntiNakedMan?

[heavymetal]

So does anyone actually know what the $ difference is between a guy who has 200 hours and a guy who has 500?

Where did he get those hours? What does he want to do now he has 500hrs.

There are so many factors that go into deciding risk and experience that is why they have insurance agents. If you have 500hrs TT and 300 of it is PIC on a 172 doing power line patrol then you are probably a shoe in for that 172 that does aerial photography. But lets say you want to fly a 185 on floats commercially; forget it.