"unforseen operational circumstances"

[KAG]

Here's the scenario:
You have a day with multiple trips planned, total duty time is 12 hours. There is no stop planned longer than say 1 hour.

Now say after the first leg you go mechanical and incur a three-hour delay. At that point you know if you do every trip that is planned you will exceed your 14-hour duty day, It is “foreseeable” that you will bust your duty day.

For years I have gone under the assumption (my interpolation of the CARS) that you cannot complete all the planned trips, as you will breach your duty day. So you call the company and they get another crew to finish the remaining trip(s).
But it seems that some have another opinion that you can complete the planned trips, even knowing that you will break your duty day early on.
I’ve looked at the definitions/CARS of “unforeseen operational circumstances”, duty days and so on, and it is really vague as to what is an “unforeseen operational circumstance” and when it really applies – any time during the planned duty period or at the end (last leg).

Now I’m of the opinion that you cannot complete the day as you can foresee a breach of 14 hours. If on the last leg weather, ATC, ETC causes you to break your 14 hours – no foul that is unforseen. Some Captains I have flown with feel that anytime during the day if a delay is incurred you can complete the planned day as long as it doesn’t break 17 hours and all crewmembers are in agreement. The wording in our collective agreement also agrees to this, and that document is more restrictive than the CARS.

Have I been wrong for years, or can the CARS be interpolated either way and both be correct?

[ZBB118.10]

KAG....

I am of the opinion that you theory is correct on this one. If an operational situation arises that enables you to plan early enough NOT to bust your duty day, then it is no longer unforeseen. In other words, the company should do all it can to avoid this and if avoidance is possible then this is the way to go.

Some Captains I have flown with feel that anytime during the day if a delay is incurred you can complete the planned day as long as it doesn’t break 17 hours and all crewmembers are in agreement.

Yeah right! These guys are twisting the interpretation of unforeseen!? If you have a delay that is incurred at say, hour three of your day and you can then reasonably foresee that it is likely to bust your 14 hours, its not really unforeseen is it? If the delay happens at hour 12, and its gonna take you at least 4 more hours to complete your day or return to base, then at that point it is unforeseen..

Just my opinion. This argument is a bit like the "minimum rest" one. The CAR's is way too open to (mis) interpretation in these areas and needs to be revised.

[Donald]

I have heard these questions before and I respond with a question....

Are you more concerned with:

Satisfying your boss/keeping your job?

Satisfying TC/losing your license?

Satisfying the lawyers after the crash/staying out of jail and keeping your possessions?



For the record I have always used the intrepretation KAG presented, that it's really only unforeseen on the last leg.

[YVR Dude]

My interpretation would be to do as many of the trips until its close to the 14 hours...after that, your done. I agree, it is no longer unforseen after multiple legs....the story would be different if you were doing a flight that lasted 12 or so hours and that put you over...different story but not multiple legs. You can't knowingly be sitting on the ground and then blast off knowing that you will be busting your duty times...

my thoughts only!




720.17 Unforeseen Operational Circumstances

The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) Flight duty time and flight time limitations may be extended by up to 3 consecutive hours provided that:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(a) where flight duty time is extended, the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by an amount at least equal to the extension to the flight duty time;
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(b) the pilot-in-command shall notify the air operator, in accordance with procedures outlined in the company operations manual, of the length of and the reason for the extension;

(c) the air operator shall retain the notifications until the completion of the next Department of Transport audit; and

(d) the air operator shall notify the Minister as soon as practicable.

(2) Flights shall be planned to be completed within the maximum flight time and maximum flight duty time taking into account the time necessary for pre-flight and post-flight duties, the flight or series of flights, forecast weather, turn-around times and the nature of the operation.

[Donald]

And if I quote 700.17 you will notice a difference:

Unforeseen Operational Circumstances

700.17 The maximum flight time referred to in paragraphs 700.15(1)(a) to (e) and the maximum flight duty time referred to in subsection 700.16(1) may be exceeded if
(amended 1999/06/01; previous version)

(a) the flight is extended as a result of unforeseen operational circumstances;

(b) the pilot-in-command, after consultation with the other flight crew members, considers it safe to exceed the maximum flight time and flight duty time; and
(amended 1999/06/01; previous version)

(c) the air operator and the pilot-in-command comply with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

It does not mention extending a series of flights.

I tried to find a specific 705 reference but was unable, so maybe I have missed something in the CAR's.

[Rockie]

Yes, in the scenerio you've described you may complete your duty day exceeding 14 hours but not more than 17. The operative word is may. It is up to you and if you are too fatigued to do that I would suggest you decline the extension to your duty day. It is your right and though you would be fully in compliance with the CAR's, I understand some employers may make your life difficult as a result so my other suggestion is to document everything. If your employer is that kind of person you should probably do that anyway just to cover yourself.

Below is the Transport Canada guidance material to the CAR's covering this topic:

S740.17 Unforeseen Operational Circumstances

(1)Unforeseen operational circumstances (UOC) may be used to allow a pilot to complete a “block” or “cycle” with an extension to the flight time limitations for either the seven, 30 or 90 day periods. For example, a pilot on a 7-day block accumulates 3 additional flight hours during the first 6 days due to UOC. The pilot may still fly a trip on day 7 which takes him/her to a maximum of 43 hours in 7 days. In all cases, the maximum extension allowed is three consecutive hours.

(2)Planning is considered to be unrealistic if the maximum flight duty time or flight time on a particular route is exceeded on more than 10% of occasions where 10 or more flights follow that route in a calendar year. The operator must take appropriate action to ensure that the planning is realistic and the flight or series of flights is completed within the maximum allowable flight time and flight duty time. Flights on routes of less frequency than 10 per year should be dealt with on a case-to-case basis.

(3)UOC relates solely to operational circumstances, which result in delays to a planned schedule. In other words, these circumstances must be crew, weather, aircraft mechanical, ATC or emergency related and must directly affect the operation of the aircraft. Delaying the departure of a flight to wait for a delayed passenger may have an operational effect on the schedule, but it is not an UOC.


Paragraph (3) is particularly interesting because not everything is considered "operational", and therefore does not count for extending the duty day.

[Rockie]

I have to qualify what I just wrote. If your multible legs take you back through your home base at anytime, your employer has the ability to bring another crew in to complete the flight schedule without any disruption to the flights. In this case I would definitely pull the plug at 14 hours.

Transport Canada is notorious for not giving interpretations for this kind of stuff, but the intent of the UOC rule is clearly to get the aircraft back to a base where another crew can take over without causing undo financial and operational disruption. This is a case where you have to draw the line yourself and hold firm. And remember...at no time can an employer compel you to extend your duty day. You must consent to it.

[ahramin]

I would consider mech problems at the start of a series of flights as UOC. I recently used this one to delay a flight 1.5 hours at the end of a 15 hour duty day because of thunderstorms. Sure at that point we could have shut down and spent the night so it wasn't unforseeable that we would be late, but it was not something we can plan for at the start of the day.

However like rockie pointed out, if it happens a lot, it is not unforseeable.

[Donald]

Seriously though.....

If you were unfortunate enough to have an accident in the 16th hour of your extended day, due to unforeseen operational circumstances, how do you honestly think the lawyers are going to intrepret the CARs? Are your company reps going to stand behind you or slink away saying that they never pressure you and would've replaced the crew without hesitation?

In this day and age, I think it is a valid question and one worth considering.

Example: MK airlines crash in YHZ. Do you not think the lawyers are going to have a hey-day, even though the crew was operating on a foreign permit allowing a crazy long day?

[mduffy]

This discussion should be a reminder at the end of a 16 hour day that it is Transport Canada we should be angry at, not the company. This is an example where neither the interests of the pax or the crew have been considered. Transport should recognize that many pilots work for companies that won't support them shutting things down after 14 hours, and protect the public who fly while unaware of these issues.

Shame on you if you work for Transport!

'Unforseen' - What a joke!

[sky's the limit]

It never ceases to amaze me how many "staple" rules are up for constant debate. Why are these things left to such open interpretation in the first place? TC needs to clarify, in nice simple language, what is allowed, and what is not. Be the end of fearing for one's job, licence, and belongings...

STL

[mduffy]

Are there any TC folks here who could try to offer an explanation for this rule? Perhaps we're missing something.

How about a limit to the number of legs that can be flown if you are extending your duty day? I don't think the 'unforeseen' rule should be used to enable an operator to squeeze in the 8th leg!

[prop2jet]

It was already stated in an earlier post in that if you are flying multiple legs and should pass through a base where pilots can be assigned to your flight that will clearly go over your 14 hour duty day, then you get off. The procedure to follow when requesting an extension to the duty day is outlined in the COM. Most operators require the crew to inform them and seek authorization for the extension. This is your chance as crewmembers to decide whether this is what you want to do. At no time is the company to come to you as crew and say that you have to go unforseen.

What is really required are changes to the rules that govern flight crew duty days. We are out of step with many parts of the world on this issue.

[RFN]

I always understood (without actually trying to study up on it) that unforeseen operational circumstances only counted once you were in the air on the last leg of the day. In other words, you are not allowed to launch on a flight knowing you will go over 15 hours. It only excused wx, ATC, or other delays once in the air.
P.S. I have no facts in writing to back this up.
P.P.S. That said, I would not want to stay overnight in ZTM because I was waiting for wx.

[rd1331]

I agree with RFN, and I have been told that exact thing from Transport Inspectors. UOS can only happen once in the air. Doesn't matter what leg you are on. If you take off nowing you will exceed your duty day, then it is Not legal. Actually that question was asked on my CP interview with Transport and I asked them to clarify.

So all you thinking you can take off on any flight where you know you will exceed your day, your asking for a whole lotta trouble. Doesn't matter where you end, if you know you will exceed your day before your flight time starts for the leg you are NOT under the UOS.

Notice though i did say flight time, thats the way they, two inspectors, explained it. Once you start the engine and start moving under power of the aircraft, you can be delayed waiting for clearance and still go if at that point you will exceed your day.

I have heard though other inspectors give different interpretations. But which one you think they are going to go with when the crap hits the fan. All i can say is cover your ass with Transport.

[Cat Driver]

" All i can say is cover your ass with Transport. "

Umnfortunately that is impossible as they will and can interpet their rules to suit their own agenda.

Anyone who thinks TC is a fair and abides by the law is living in wonderland.

[Flying Nutcracker]

Seriously... how can TC be fair when the rules are so widely interpreted???

I think we should stick together when it comes to this issue. This is the working for free discussion all over again. "Well if you don't do it we'll find people who will!" Know your limits and stand your ground. Noone can tell you to go over 14 hours, nor should you unless you really have to get home - get home itis.

[Lommer]

Lets say i'm flying a light aircraft on skis out to a food cache or something in the middle of nowhere near the end of my duty day. I land load/unload some cargo, have some trouble with something that takes an hour instead of the anticipated 15 minutes. I now know that I will be beyond my duty day if I fly home. Am I going to start my engine, take off, and fly home knowing I will be 30-45 mins over my duty day? Hell yea. Anyone who argues that I should cancel that flight because I knew I was going to bust the duty time before I started the engine is an idiot - I think I'd be more fit to fly at that point in time rather than after I've overnighted outside in freezing arctic temperatures getting probably-not-very-good sleep. How does this fit into the duty day picture?

P.S. I'm a newb without even a CPL so forgive me if this sounds totally idiotic.

[ramp_agent]

118.10ZBB,

I think you should always try and break duty times and work for free as much as possible, this way you are not really working anyway, right?

[mduffy]

Lommer,

Indirectly, you've brought up a good point - which is that the this portion of the CARS does not descriminate well enough between various sectors of aviation.

What if your delay occured at base, and it was obvious that you would no longer be able to make it to destination and back within 14 hours? The current rules would allow you to go.

Clearly, the CARS should not force you to freeze to death trying to sleep in the plane. But if there was a Hilton down the street and a reserve crew standing by at base...

[Dockjock]

Seems most people's default setting on duty days is, "hell no we won't go". This is really more a function of the law being crazy as it is- I mean 17 hrs is legal? Clearly, that's a problem. But at the root, its not a rule that the companies made (directly), so we have to be careful not to take our frustration with the rule out on our employers. We have to lobby the government and transport on a larger scale to get that changed to something more reasonable. (WE NEED TO CREATE A NATIONAL PILOT ASSOCIATION TO TAKE CARE OF EXACTLY THESE ISSUES!!!)

But back to the original question, I think that a mechanical, regardless of what time it happens during the flight day (after check-in) can be reasonably considered as unforseen. Who actually "forsees" a mechanical breakdown? We can't use mechanical breakdowns as a "legal" background for holding our bosses feet to the fire, regardless of how tempting it often is.
The grey area for this, for me, is weather. If the TAF at check-in calls for thunderstorms and hail, and we end up getting ground stopped for 3 hrs due to a red alert...I ain't extending. It was forecast, and therefore "foreseen". No, you can't predict the length of the delay, but the company can and should plan for busted days during thunderstorm season- particularly when the scheduled days are 11, 12, 13 hrs to start with. But if we have crummy-but-OK weather forecast at check-in and it goes for the shits, that's unforseen to me and I'll go into discretion to complete the day.
That's my opinion, anyway.

[Lommer]

Dockjock, let's say that I have a day planned with a dozen legs for a bunch of different customers, and the aircraft goes mechanical after my first leg, one hour into my duty day. It takes about two hours to get it fixed. Are you saying that I should then reasonably be expected to extend my duty to 16 or 17 hours, even if I pass though home base a couple more times in the day? Even if the last two or three hours of my day are short hops? I'd say no... it is not unreasonable to expect your employer to either provide another crew or bite the bullet and cancel/postpone the last flights. I recognize that many employers wouldn't interpret the CARs this way, but I think TC might have something to say if you went to a full 17 hours under this logic.

[Dockjock]

I can't say what you would be expected to do- that's between you and your employer. But I'm saying you'd be legal. A mechanical breakdown after check in is always unforseen.
A separate issue is whether or not you feel fit to extend a 14 hr day after 12+ legs. For me, I'd be beat at the end of that day- that's a lot of flying. But, my interpretation stands that you'd be legal to extend provided you felt fit to do so. 'Legal' and 'safe' are two separate things.

[giligan]

You're right KAG, that said, if crew sked or dispatch can get the flight out then their a$$ is covered, you MIGHT actually do the trip, especially if you are on probation, or if they keep pushing. The way I see it is as most do, in your example you do forsee that you will be dutied, they don't have a leg to stand on, email it to the cheif pilot between stops so there is a written record if you have to. I think it is intended (as most do) if you get a ground stop in Philly, and you are turning to Toronto on your last leg and you blow your day. That is unforseen, even if you're in the line up as you go through the 14hrs. I'm all for getting the job done but if I'm scratching your back then when mine needs it you had better be there.

I've heard of this crap happening too KAG, I took this job so I wouldn't have to deal with that anymore.

end rant

gil

[mduffy]

The best weapons in these circumstances are a clean pair of underwear and a toothbrush! You always make better decisions when you know that you are prepared to stay over should something 'unforeseen' arise.