Wecome to Nav Cans Canada!

[Cat Driver]

J31, no problem, just read the rest of his contribution to this group.

[justplanecrazy]

justplaincrazy, to avoid a pissing match over this my experience with ATC around the world is that the level of service is far better in say the USA or England in the greater London area or Paris or Most of Euro Control than in Canada.

There must be a reason and maybe starting with the culture in Nav Canadas upper management might be a good place to start.

High density traffic is not something that is only found in Vancouver airspace, it is a world wide thing.

And there is a difference in the levels of service.

Cat, if you look at my post, I said that other than LA and NY there aren't any more congested airspaces involving a mix of VFR/IFR aircraft in North America. In reality, you could probably place that statement across the world as North America seems to be the only place with a large GA community to the best of my knowledge.

YVR and YYJ both have far more overflights than YYZ or YTZ. In reality LAX probably deals with very few overflights. I know when I flew down there, you simply stayed below and outside of their airspace and didn't congest their frequency by talking to them. Heck, even Pittsburgh told me to remain clear and sounded pissed that I even called. Again, how do you make such a statement like the ATC in Canada being far worse than in the USA or Europe. Is it because you had to reduce speed 50kt's 35nm out? Is it because you weren't allowed to jump over to the mainland at 4,500' VFR? In the US you fly quickly to your holding pattern and aren't allowed 500' AGL. I just can't figure out why everyone is so quick to jump all over Canada's ATC. The only time I've been put into a hold or had to sit forever in a huge lineup on the ground or had to diverge large distances to avoid airspace, has been in the US. I have a buddy flying out of YYZ after spending the last 6 years flying in the US and he has no problems with YYZ and he's currently flying internationally into the UK, Germany, Austraulia, Switzerland etc.

There will be some delays due staffing over the next 5-10 years in Canada gauranteed, but that is simply a complete flush of staff from the last baby boomers and is unavoidable and will happen again in 30 years when everyone retires. No this isn't a pissing match, just trying to figure out what you base your judgements on.

[buck82]

Not to stir the pot.. but just a queery. Why did you request 4,500 and not 3,500 or 5,500 for the eastbound?

[niss]

What services do you pay for as an owner in regards to ATC? Is it just operators or do privatly owned a/c get stuck with a bill too? Is it just IFR you need to pay etc. ?

[Cat Driver]

justplanecrazy, my comments are made from personal observations based on levels of service and flexibility with regard to helping out VFR pilots in a friendly manner in controlled airspace in other countries and comparing same to Nav Canada.

I will admit that I have a bias against NC's top management who are retreads from TC still stuck in the Neandrethal era of
human history. If you ever have the missfortune of having to deal with these clowns you most probably would feel as I do toward NC.

I think I used all of aviation for my comparison of ATC service.

"
Cat, if you look at my post, I said that other than LA and NY there aren't any more congested airspaces involving a mix of VFR/IFR aircraft in North America. In reality, you could probably place that statement across the world as North America seems to be the only place with a large GA community to the best of my knowledge. "

Fair enough comment justplanecrazy, I have not flown in Canada for quite a few years and not commercially for eleven years so my opinion may be flawed and maybe NC is now world class for service.

However if you fly in the greater London Airspace you will find about fifteen airports in a fifty mile radius of Heathrow with lots of VFR stuff flying in very narrow corridors and vertical limits, from my recollection of YVR traffic I would opine that Vancouver is a cake walk in comparison to London.

But hey, what the hell I am out of the Aviation quagmire of rules and policies and any flying I may do now will be in my Cub on floats outside of controlled airspace so I will hopefully not have the need to avail myself of NC's services.

Cat

[Cat Driver]

Buck82:

I requested 4500 because a Cessna 150 does not climb like the space shuttle and 4500 was sufficient for what I needed.

You can request anything you wish from ATC and it is up to them to approve or refuse your request.

[bbb]

OK, we all agree that there are a**h*** controllers, and I bet we agree that there are also a**h*** pilots. But (and I'm gonna make myself sound ancient here) it is true that there has been a big change in the level of service, as well as the attitude, from 20 yrs ago. It seemed that the intent at that time was to move as many aircraft as possible, in the most direct/efficient manner possible. The controllers & FSS specialists had a tough bunch of years when the gov converted it all to NavCan, but unfortunately now managment seems to have spread a "new" attitude down the ranks. I know many controllers who have retired in disgust. There are still some great folks there, and lots who do care, and try.... but it seems the last 8 yrs the level of service, common sense from the controllers, has taken a further slide. The newer hires can't seem to "control" unless they've got something on the radar screen, and not out the window (VFR/IFR tower), and spacing/timing/waits have gotten way out the window. Perhaps its just the inevitable - once the experienced (but not burned out) folks are gone, there's no one to learn the practical stuff from, and each generation of trainees is missing out on more and more. Gee, I could start a similar thread on pilot training! When's the last time you met an instructor who had the common sense we took for granted 20 years ago? Yes, I'm sure they're out there somewhere, just haven't seen any lately! And they of course are teaching the next generation and so on, and so on..... could get scarey if you thought about it too hard!

[niss]

So I guess I am going to get ignored like a red haired step child?

[greykin]

OK, we all agree that there are a**h*** controllers, and I bet we agree that there are also a**h*** pilots. But (and I'm gonna make myself sound ancient here) it is true that there has been a big change in the level of service, as well as the attitude, from 20 yrs ago.

It is to be expected that there will be a change in the level of service vs. 20 yrs ago as traffic levels have doubled in that time. That is not a convenient, rounded-up number. The levels have literally doubled in that time frame. Wpg ACC, for instance, saw as many movements in July of this year as it would have during an entire quarter in the mid 80's. That may have something to do with it.

I strongly disagree that there is a lack of knowledge being passed on to new controllers. While many 'old timers' are in the process of retiring, there are still lots around.

What are some specific examples of this decrease in service that you've experienced? "Level of service" is a very vague term.

[linecrew]

What services do you pay for as an owner in regards to ATC? Is it just operators or do privatly owned a/c get stuck with a bill too? Is it just IFR you need to pay etc. ?

Here is a link to the guide to NAVCAN fees. It depends on the size of aircraft (max T/O weight) and the type of flight but everybody pays.

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... New_en.pdf

[niss]

So if you are within the weight limit, even if you just do circuits @ an uncontrolled airport in uncontrolled airspace you get a $71 bill in the mail at the end of the year?

[RatherBeFlying]

Well, if NC can't staff their expanded terminal airspace, then just maybe they should revert to the original sized terminal areas.

Then the VFR pilots won't have to bother them nearly as much.

Hmm -- then they wouldn't be able to have quite as big an empire and would have to charge less to the VFR folks.

Ain't never gonna happen.

[Cat Driver]

Listen up kiddies:

Nav Canada is a bureaucracy modelled after the TC mindset due to the sidestepping of TC employees into the " Private Sector " world of Nav Canada.

Therefore its main objective is to create an ever expanding glut of " managers " to insulate the incompetent with layers of cannon fodder to be used to protect the top levels of this monster.

A bureaucracy can only survive by expansion, to expand requires " energy " read money...

..you and I " must " pay....because it is not a true private enterprise as it has Federal power driving it.

At least that is the way I see it.

Cat

[linecrew]

So if you are within the weight limit, even if you just do circuits @ an uncontrolled airport in uncontrolled airspace you get a $71 bill in the mail at the end of the year?

Yep, don't it just suck.

I believe they bill you if you have your aircraft registered.

Why do you think NAVCANADA is always in the crosshairs in this forum.

[niss]

Boo Urns.....i am not exactly up on my conversion does a 2150 lb 140 fall into the .6somthing ton?

[Aeros]

So someone who uses their plane only in uncontrolled airspace without any Nav Can services is still being charged on the order of 20 cents per day!!

If the plane was in an accident and was removed from service (but not de-registered) you still get the bill.

[greykin]

Therefore its main objective is to create an ever expanding glut of " managers " to insulate the incompetent with layers of cannon fodder to be used to protect the top levels of this monster.

A bureaucracy can only survive by expansion, to expand requires " energy " read money...

What Cat forgot to mention was that NC's charges are still lower today than they were when Transport was charging the Air Transportation Tax ten years ago, before NC's inception.

You can't invest over a billion dollars in technology, as NC has, *and* charge less than the government dept. that ran the ANS previously, by creating layers of management and a bloated system.

Are there inefficiencies that wouldn't otherwise exist in a true competitive market? Probably. In fact, definitely.

Could the ANS reasonably be run in some sort of market system where there were "competitors"? Probably not. Or at least I've yet to see someone make a rational and reasonable argument for not having the ANS run as a monopoly. And I can't think of another example anywhere on the globe where an ANS is not running in a monopoly environment.

[Cat Driver]

" What Cat forgot to mention was that NC's charges are still lower today than they were when Transport was charging the Air Transportation Tax ten years ago, before NC's inception. "

True:

And I also forgot to mention that when I first started flying my taxes paid for " A L L " services that were avaliable in aviation.

Now you must not only pay taxes you must pay " U S E R F E E S " for everything you have to get from TC and of course NC.

The reason?

Bloated bureaucracies,,

But hey, I at least had the privelge of having lived and flown in a more user friendly era...and am ending my career flying outside of most of the worlds mindboggling bureaucratic demands....

...I do it by getting exemptions and approvals to fly in foreign countries based on my background... am I lucky or smart?

When I finally die I would like to be shot out of the air by a Mig 29 over Africa stealth running through dangerous airspace, at least I would die not bored to death or suffering from some terminal disease..

Or moaning on Avcanaa about things I can't change.

Cat

[Cat Driver]

" What Cat forgot to mention was that NC's charges are still lower today than they were when Transport was charging the Air Transportation Tax ten years ago, before NC's inception. "

True:

And I also forgot to mention that when I first started flying my taxes paid for " A L L " services that were avaliable in aviation.

Now you must not only pay taxes you must pay " U S E R F E E S " for everything you have to get from TC and of course NC.

The reason?

Bloated bureaucracies,,

But hey, I at least had the privelge of having lived and flown in a more user friendly era...and am ending my career flying outside of most of the worlds mindboggling bureaucratic demands....

...I do it by getting exemptions and approvals to fly in foreign countries based on my background... am I lucky or smart?

When I finally die I would like to be shot out of the air by a Mig 29 over Africa stealth running through dangerous airspace, at least I would not die bored to death or suffering from some terminal disease..

Or moaning on Avcanaa about things I can't change.

Cat

[lilfssister]

Well, if NC can't staff their expanded terminal airspace, then just maybe they should revert to the original sized terminal areas.

Then the VFR pilots won't have to bother them nearly as much.

Hmm -- then they wouldn't be able to have quite as big an empire and would have to charge less to the VFR folks.

Ain't never gonna happen.

Sure it could happen...if the number and speeds of the majority of aircraft using that terminal airspace reverted to what it used be as well?

[Hedley]

The staffing excuse has been used continuously at Toronto for at least the last 30 years. Anybody have old COPA papers? I remember in the 70's and 80's, people complaining about being told to "remain clear" of Toronto airspace.

It was explained to me that the VFR position was the lowest priority, so if anyone was on vacation or sick, the VFR controller spot was left empty.

Over the last 30 years, it has been made very clear to me that if you're VFR, you're a second-class citizen in Canada. File IFR if you want to be taken seriously.

The difference is that south of the border, VFR traffic is taken seriously, instead of being regarded as a nuisance as it is here in Canada.

[justplanecrazy]

First off, no you aren't charged for doing circuits at an uncontrolled airport. The only extra charges you receive are when you land at airports with landing fees, file IFR etc. The way nav canada bills you is through NCAMS which only exist at sites serviced by Towers or FSS. Or if you file IFR you're billed through the filed plan.

Second, I don't know where you get the idea that VFR and IFR are treated as equals in the US. I've had numerous times where I was told to remain clear. I've never been treated any differently from one country to another except when you get to the FBO and are offered coffee doughnuts and a free rental car.