Incompetent instructor?

[groupboard]

Groupboard,

In the situation you just mentioned, in which an unplanned, sudden hazard appears, in the C-172, would it not be a better idea to simply try to stop short of it? .

If you are travelling at, say, 45 knots and you see an obstruction 20 feet in front of you, would it not be better to get into the air as quickly as possible rather than braking and hitting the obstruction at 30 knots?

My point is that in certain situations you may want to get off the ground in as short a distance as possible, and if that situation occurs you better know how to do it.

[Cat Driver]

" If you are travelling at, say, 45 knots and you see an obstruction 20 feet in front of you, "

Now thats just plain fuc.in dumb, how in hell could you get to 20 feet from something that was a problem without seeing it sooner....

[trey kule]

[groupboard]

" If you are travelling at, say, 45 knots and you see an obstruction 20 feet in front of you, "

Now thats just plain fuc.in dumb, how in hell could you get to 20 feet from something that was a problem without seeing it sooner....

If it suddenly ran onto the runway, as in my example...

[mellow_pilot]

I hate when pot holes suddenly run onto the runway. Deer don't just run 20feet infront of you and stop. I think you're grasping at straws here.

But for the sake of argument:

A deer with awesome brakes runs infront of you and plays chicken with an airplane.

So you're going to pop it into the air in 20 feet?!?!?!

That's awesome. What are you flying? The Jetson's space car? Even if you could react that fast the throttle response isn't fast enough to get full power on in that amount of time, let alone get it back into the air safely... Why not do something really crazy like STEER!

[Cat Driver]

I think this thread has degenerated about as far as it can....

[Fish]

G board, give your head a shake.

What are you flying? The Jetson's space car?

I think this thread has degenerated about as far as it can....

Woot woot!

[shitdisturber]

Since I think we all can agree that a pothole isn't likely to run in front of you without warning; let's go with the deer theory just for the fun of it. This would have to be at night, since as Cat pointed out; you'd have to be pretty blind to not see a deer that close. Be that as it may, you'd have to be out of your mind to try to go over it from that distance. I would guesstimate, that if you hit the power and tried to go over it, you should succeed in getting just high enough to go over on your roof following impact.

I look forward to your next bizarre theory in your attempt to try to prove that you know more than your instructor; but then I'm really bored and easily amused.

[Justwannafly]

And if you feel that you must rush...

DON'T DO A TOUCH AND GO

Now you are really being crazy - full stop and taxi back? What could be done in that taxi back....discussing what just went on? Nah. Who would want to do that for the first few to get things straight and then go into touch and goes? What kind of learning could possibly go on with that?

I belive the point that he/she was making it's better to be prepared for the takeoff instead of lossing control of the plane and/or hitting something at the end of the runways

[groupboard]

I belive the point that he/she was making it's better to be prepared for the takeoff instead of lossing control of the plane and/or hitting something at the end of the runways

My example probably wasn't the best, but I was simply pointing out that there may be certain situations when you want to get off the ground as soon as possible. Do you really want to turn off the runway at high speed, possibly flipping over the plane, or take off in a controlled manner if there is sufficient runway to do so (and insufficient distance to stop)?

[groupboard]

I hate when pot holes suddenly run onto the runway. Deer don't just run 20feet infront of you and stop. I think you're grasping at straws here.

But for the sake of argument:

A deer with awesome brakes runs infront of you and plays chicken with an airplane.

So you're going to pop it into the air in 20 feet?!?!?!

That's awesome. What are you flying? The Jetson's space car? Even if you could react that fast the throttle response isn't fast enough to get full power on in that amount of time, let alone get it back into the air safely... Why not do something really crazy like STEER!

This is really starting to piss me off now. Are you people really such dumbfuks you can't imagine the obvious, or are you just trying to be argumentative? Let me try to help you out here.

If you're landing at night, you aren't likely to see the deer until it is right on the runway. If there are trees nearby, you aren't likely to see it while it's in the trees. Ever heard of a deer frozen in the headlights? It happens all the time on highways, and causes quite a lot of accidents.

In 20 feet you could just lift the nose immediately, and you would clear the obstruction and probably stall. If you put the throttle on at the same time as you lift the nose, you might avoid the stall (or at least avoid hitting the ground so hard when you land). And a stall from 10 feet is going to hurt a lot less than slamming into a deer at 40 knots. If instead of 20 feet you have 50 or 100 feet, you have a better chance of clearing the obstacle safely.

[CCnCoke]

This is really starting to piss me off now. Are you people really such dumbfuks you can't imagine the obvious, or are you just trying to be argumentative? Let me try to help you out here.

You know, I'm beginning to see why you've been with 5 or 6 instructors with so little time. If you were my student with this attitude I'd show you where the door was and tell you never to come back. Someone please put this thread out of it's misery.

[The Vault]

Someone please put this thread out of it's misery.

I'll second that motion!!!

[groupboard]

You know, I'm beginning to see why you've been with 5 or 6 instructors with so little time. If you were my student with this attitude I'd show you where the door was and tell you never to come back. Someone please put this thread out of it's misery.

Therein lies the danger in making assumptions. I got my PPL with 3 instructors in about 50 hours, at one flight school. The reason for going through 3 instructors is because the first two moved on. After getting my PPL I moved to a different area - at that school I did my CAA IMC rating with two instructors. The first instructor there was only working (very) part-time, so I completed the IMC rating with the CFI. I then moved to Canada and have had two instructors - the first was a checkout on a 172, which went fine. The second was with a different school to get checked out on the warrior, because the first school didn't have warriors.

I have never had a problem with an instructor until this one. And as I have said, the problem isn't me being pigheaded about not following instructions or admitting when I'm wrong - the problem is the instructor not understanding the basics about what flaps do. The same applies to some of the instructors in this forum, so I assume he is not alone. I only have an attitude when I'm dealing with thick fukwits who should know better...

[Fish]

Sorry groupboard, you lost all credibility when you made your first post. The only thing this instructor did wrong was get in a plane with you.

[groupboard]

Sorry groupboard, you lost all credibility when you made your first post. The only thing this instructor did wrong was get in a plane with you.

So you agree with him that a warrior will not climb with 2 stages of flap, and more than one stage of flap only produces drag and no lift, even though the POH states that you use 2 stages of flap for short-field takeoffs? I'm glad I'm not flying with you either...

[mcrit]

groupwad:
Check your attitude at the door son because you just aren't smart enough or experienced enough to be this disrepectful.

This is really starting to piss me off now. Are you people really such dumbfuks you can't imagine the obvious, or are you just trying to be argumentative? Let me try to help you out here.

You want to call me a dumbfuck you stupid pencil necked limey git? (See, even my insults are better than yours). PM and I'll give you my address so you can try it to my face.

As for your situtation with your instructor; I tried to give you a polite education but I'm going to put it in blunt terms because you're just to stupid to understand subtle. You are *WRONG*; the things that you suggest will get you killed. You want to commence a take off with 30 degrees of flap? (A touch and go is a take off, they are the same, the plane goes through the same region of the drag curve regardless of if it starts from zero speed or non-zero. If you're not getting onto the back side of the drag curve when you touch down on a touch and go then you are really fouling up). The POH says don't do it, everybody here told you don't do it. What is your problem? Are you the result of cousins that like to screw?
If something pops up 20' in front of you on t/o and you aren't going over it unless you are already at rotation speed. Sure, you can drop all your flaps, you will balloon off the ground, and then you will slow down right quick because your drag just went through the roof, as you slow you will loose lift and then drop like a rock; or, if God really hates you, you float all the way out of ground effect, slow right the hell down, stall and hit the ground in an incipient spin. Fun fun fun....
I really suggest that you go read Kershner (University of Iowa Press). He knows his stuff.

[groupboard]

You want to call me a dumbfuck you stupid pencil necked limey git? (See, even my insults are better than yours). PM and I'll give you my address so you can try it to my face.

As for your situtation with your instructor; I tried to give you a polite education but I'm going to put it in blunt terms because you're just to stupid to understand subtle. You are *WRONG*; the things that you suggest will get you killed. You want to commence a take off with 30 degrees of flap? (A touch and go is a take off, they are the same, the plane goes through the same region of the drag curve regardless of if it starts from zero speed or non-zero. If you're not getting onto the back side of the drag curve when you touch down on a touch and go then you are really fouling up). The POH says don't do it, everybody here told you don't do it. What is your problem? Are you the result of cousins that like to screw?

mcrit: if you check my posts you'll see that I didn't actually call you a dumbfuck, but the term may apply. How will taking off with 25 degrees (not 30) on a piper warrior get you killed when the POH specifies that you can use 25 degrees (2 stages) for a short-field takeoff? I specifically mentioned "warrior" in my last post so that you wouldn't think I was talking about a 172.

Regarding the 172: yes, it is not recommended to take-off with 2 stages of flap. However, it is incorrect to state that you will not climb with 2 stages of flap on a 172. The 172 POH states that when commencing an overshoot you should remove one stage of flap, and only remove the rest when you have attained a positive rate of climb. Why would the POH say this if you will not climb with 2 stages of flap?

[Cat Driver]

" If something pops up 20' in front of you on t/o and you aren't going over it unless you are already at rotation speed. "

mcrit, stop for a few heartbeats and look logically at what this dumb fuc.er is doing to you.

The only thing that a warrior or C172 is going to clear in twenty feet after lift off is the fuc.ing runway center line paint stripes.....

You normally are astute and think about your answers, but this time you have made a very common mistake we all make...forgot to look at it logically.

Now if you were doing a touch and go in a helicopter you could easily clear a deer or a cow or an idiot twenty feet in front of you such as this one who has wound everyone up here.

Cat...

[groupboard]

groupwad:
You want to commence a take off with 30 degrees of flap?

Isn't 2 stages of flap on a 172 20 degrees? As far as I understand (but I could be wrong), the older 172s flaps were 10/20/40, and the newer ones are 10/20/30. So 2 stages of flap will always be 20 degrees.

[l_reason]

groupboard

I’m not really sure if you realize who your talking to…. This thread has well over 1300 hits and your arguing with guys that have more time in both 172’s and lil Pipers. I’m sure almost everyone that has read this thread has time in both types of plane. Some of us have spent more time in a week in a 172 then you took to do your ppl (I am not proud of that). What I’m trying to tell you is that there is a vast amount of knowledge here on avcanada. Next time you have a question about how a procedure is to be done take a while and have a look at the POH. If that doesn’t clarify it totally, go and ask the CFI. Once you have presented your argument to them and convince your self your right. Then and only then come and ask the bright folks here what they think.

Next time you go out to the airport and get in a plane take a look at the Journey Log Book. Who the hell do you think was flying the plane for the last 8000 hours? I’ll give you a clue…. Your talking to a few of them on here. Some of the folks here have spent more time between the “Touch” and the “Go” then you have TT.

Just for fun how long was the runway you were using in your checkout?

[groupboard]

I_reason:

I don't have a problem with taking advice. As I pointed out earlier, I asked the CFIs what the correct procedure for a touch-and-go was, and I am happy to follow that.

What seems to be happening on this forum is that people like mcrit are saying I am an idiot for wanting to take off with 30 degrees of flap in a 172, which is not what I even said. I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion, but when people read exactly the opposite of what I write and criticise me for it, or post inanely stupid comments just to try to prove me wrong, it is irritating.

I've been reading through these forums for a while and any time a low-timer comes on there are usually a lot of condescending comments about "x hour wonder", with the assumption that the person knows f* all. Having a lot of time doesn't necessarily make you a safer pilot - most accidents are due to poor planning and poor decisions.

Oh, and I never said I had 90 hours total time - that is just from my initial training on the 172. But whether I have 91 hours or 900, it shouldn't really matter.

[Ramp Monkey YYJ]

AAAAHAHAHAHAHAH LOL this is the funniest topic I've ever seen!!

Groupboard, I've gotta hand it to ya bro... you really don't give up do you? Even if you've been proven wrong over and over again, you just keep on truckin. You remind me of somebody I work the Ramp with at YYJ... argues with everybody about everything... to the point where he's the laughing stock. We call him FACE

and right now, you're being FACEtious

i give up, YOU WIN BIG GUY!!!

[mcrit]

This is really starting to piss me off now. Are you people really such dumbfuks you can't imagine the obvious, or are you just trying to be argumentative? Let me try to help you out here.

'you people' would seem to indicate the people who disagree with you, of which I am one.

Regarding the 172: yes, it is not recommended to take-off with 2 stages of flap.

Wrong: The POH *forbids* t/o with more than 10 flaps. That means just don't do it.... ever. For comparison the POH *recommends* that you don't slip with flaps. That means you can do it but things get funky.

I am an idiot for wanting to take off with 30 degrees of flap in a 172, which is not what I even said

You said you want to retract 1 stage of flap on a touch and go, then open the throttle and deal with the rest of the flap retraction in the air. Applying full power on a touch and go *is* starting a take off. Retracting one stage of flap on a 172 is leaving up to 30 degrees hanging. Hence you said you want to t/o with up to 30 degrees of flap. Clear?

Why would the POH say this if you will not climb with 2 stages of flap?

Because the idea at that point isn't to climb, it's to arrest the descent and give you a few seconds to get the a/c under control. If you don't believe me come down to Brampton and we'll load up a 172 so that it's at gross weight on a hot day. We'll head up, drop 20 flaps and see just how happy the a/c is to climb.

Isn't 2 stages of flap on a 172 20 degrees? As far as I understand (but I could be wrong), the older 172s flaps were 10/20/40, and the newer ones are 10/20/30. So 2 stages of flap will always be 20 degrees.

Good, I was wondering if you'd catch that one. Some of the old 172s are 10, 20, 30, 40, so bringing one up leaves......30

CAT:
You got a good point, I should not have used 20' for an example. The point I was trying to make was that the only way you have any hope of getting over an obstacle close in was if you already have flying speed and that dropping extra flap isn't going to cut it.
Just been a bad week. I've been getting to deal with my two favourite things all mixed together: french and bueracracy. Add to that they took away my rifle and haven't given me an airplane yet.....I'm just feeling combative and KIA (K-now I-t A-ll, groupthink's new name) was making WAAAYYYYY to much of a target of himself.

[Cat Driver]

mcrit:

I was refering to groupboard having used the 20 feet analogy.

These discussions are good for the industry, gives people a clearer insite into the level of ignorance there is among far to many licensed pilots when it comes to understanding how to safely fly their aircraft.

Thank you groupboard for your part in educating the group by allowing everyone to examine the confusion that reigns supreme in understanding the most basic of aircraft handling procedures.

By the way groupboard, make sure you only fly off long runways, you may live longer that way.

Cat