How many of you would stay in flight instruction if you made $50,000 a year minimum for working five days a week?
There is a way to get that, if enough of you keeners are interested I will explain how to do it, and do it leaglly.
Cat
A question for Flight Instructors
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Cat Driver
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A question for Flight Instructors
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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200hr Wonder
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Highflyinpilot
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I absolutly would. without question. I always told myself when i first started my tarining that I do not need to be flying a 747 making 100k a year, as long as i am happy and can afford a night out everyonce in a while. And besides I would probably enjoy flight instructing more so tyhan anything else. I just cant really afford to live for pennies right now 
I'd say the biggest down side to instructing was the poor pay for how many hours you spend at the school, and the large amount of free labour associated with it. However if the students you are teaching are not competent, and can't speak english, I don't think any amount of money could have kept me in it. I know a few people at Allied Wings in Portage La Prairie, MB, they make the kind of money Cat is talking about, fly brand new kick ass planes, and all love there jobs as they are teaching the cream of the crop. That would be the job to keep you instructing. I'd like to hear your theory Cat...
Ski_Bum
Ski_Bum
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Highflyinpilot
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As said in my previous post, I cant work for pennies right now, or ever.
I think its ridiculous the amount instructors get paid. I really dont understand how people can make it with an instructors salary. I definetly wouldnt be able to.(I know some instructors do make good money)
I think its ridiculous the amount instructors get paid. I really dont understand how people can make it with an instructors salary. I definetly wouldnt be able to.(I know some instructors do make good money)
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Cat Driver
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" Does it require a financial investment? "
Only on the part of the student.
I could do it with a class 4 and so could anyone with a good flying background and the ability to teach.
Only on the part of the student.
I could do it with a class 4 and so could anyone with a good flying background and the ability to teach.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
This is a darn good question Cat. You know, I had wanted to go back into instructing (after 25 years) when I retired in two year. the money itself was not an issue as I kind of thought I would be giving back to aviation for all it gave me.....but....I thought of two issues. the first is that it is an insult to me , and secondly, if I did, I would be helping to perpetuate this horrible situation.
It is unfortuante that instructors are not held in the same regard in Canada as they are elsewhere, but it seems the Canadian way is to go cheap, not particularly good, and that means the instructor ranks are not filled with dedicated career instructors, but time builders who are "paying their dues".
Unfortunately, I dont see any real changes in the near future. Years ago in the UK instructors were well paid and the result was that the US flight schools scooped the majority of the business (other reasons too, but this did not help)
So, to answer your question, absolutely, and if I was starting out as a student I would be looking for one of these instructers.
It is unfortuante that instructors are not held in the same regard in Canada as they are elsewhere, but it seems the Canadian way is to go cheap, not particularly good, and that means the instructor ranks are not filled with dedicated career instructors, but time builders who are "paying their dues".
Unfortunately, I dont see any real changes in the near future. Years ago in the UK instructors were well paid and the result was that the US flight schools scooped the majority of the business (other reasons too, but this did not help)
So, to answer your question, absolutely, and if I was starting out as a student I would be looking for one of these instructers.
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Cat Driver
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50k instructing? That's not bad but at the same time other careers pays more and you still work 5 days. Mind you my Cathay FO friend keeps sending everyone that "My Cubical" spoof of "Your Beautiful" and he's got a point there.
Today I read a paper for my masters, pre school prep, (why does academics have to put crazy equations for something that's dead easy to explain?) and I gota say if it was possible to have a flying job that pays decent (about 60k pre tax?) and with about the same amount of effort investment as my masters... I would consider it.
Today I read a paper for my masters, pre school prep, (why does academics have to put crazy equations for something that's dead easy to explain?) and I gota say if it was possible to have a flying job that pays decent (about 60k pre tax?) and with about the same amount of effort investment as my masters... I would consider it.
I would definitely stay. I don't really mind putting in the extra time and giving "free" hours towards the school I work at because they are like my family. The only thing that sucks is that I do all that free stuff and can barely survive on what I make. If you have some way that I could be guaranteed even 25K, I would take and stay in instructing.
I am skeptical that there is any way to make that type of wage instructing, but I obviously do not have the time in the industry that others like Cat have had. If you have harnesed your wisdom to come up with something that no one else has considered, or has kept a secret, please share this with us.
I am skeptical that there is any way to make that type of wage instructing, but I obviously do not have the time in the industry that others like Cat have had. If you have harnesed your wisdom to come up with something that no one else has considered, or has kept a secret, please share this with us.
to all of you who said you would stay as an instructor if you could make a decent living, I do hope you will hang on as long as possible. The industry needs you.
The question everyone should be asking, I think, is how to accomplich this goal. I am big time anti-union, but peraps some sort of organization should be formed where it is possible to deal with all flight schools, rather than one pilot vs. the flight school. Some of you out there must know something about how to go about accomplishing this. Maybe there is another way (without running to the government)
In the meantime, hats off to all you who instruct because you love it.
The question everyone should be asking, I think, is how to accomplich this goal. I am big time anti-union, but peraps some sort of organization should be formed where it is possible to deal with all flight schools, rather than one pilot vs. the flight school. Some of you out there must know something about how to go about accomplishing this. Maybe there is another way (without running to the government)
In the meantime, hats off to all you who instruct because you love it.
A couple of thoughts:
1) it may not be obvious, but $50k cash in your pocket is equivalent to a nearly $100,000 salaried employee, in which case you are obligated to pay $45K per year to our beloved government for federal taxes, provincial taxes, EI and CPP (which are taxes except in name). The government is a very big obstacle in you getting that $50k into your pocket.
2) if you are performing the exact same service as a newly minted class 4 instructor (eg VFR ab initio to someone looking for the cheapest instruction he can find) you're probably going to be paid about the same as a newly minted class 4, because you can't swing a dead cat by the tail without hitting a dozen of them, who want to build time and run.
So, if you want to flight instruct and not starve, it's hard not to conclude, given observations #1 and #2 above that you should perform some kind of specialized instruction - say multi, IFR, type checkout, tailwheel, float, aerobatic, ski-plane etc - for cash, and perform a minimum of ab initio.
You may have not noticed, but there are many wealthy people who own very expensive aircraft and who want the very best instructors around, because they are intelligent enough to not want the cheapest brain surgeon they could find, either. $100 per hour is very reasonable for these people, if they get the best.
Suggestion: stay flexible. Specialization is for insects, not pilots.
The above is worth what you paid me for it.
1) it may not be obvious, but $50k cash in your pocket is equivalent to a nearly $100,000 salaried employee, in which case you are obligated to pay $45K per year to our beloved government for federal taxes, provincial taxes, EI and CPP (which are taxes except in name). The government is a very big obstacle in you getting that $50k into your pocket.
2) if you are performing the exact same service as a newly minted class 4 instructor (eg VFR ab initio to someone looking for the cheapest instruction he can find) you're probably going to be paid about the same as a newly minted class 4, because you can't swing a dead cat by the tail without hitting a dozen of them, who want to build time and run.
So, if you want to flight instruct and not starve, it's hard not to conclude, given observations #1 and #2 above that you should perform some kind of specialized instruction - say multi, IFR, type checkout, tailwheel, float, aerobatic, ski-plane etc - for cash, and perform a minimum of ab initio.
You may have not noticed, but there are many wealthy people who own very expensive aircraft and who want the very best instructors around, because they are intelligent enough to not want the cheapest brain surgeon they could find, either. $100 per hour is very reasonable for these people, if they get the best.
Suggestion: stay flexible. Specialization is for insects, not pilots.
The above is worth what you paid me for it.
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Cat Driver
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" $100 per hour is very reasonable for these people, if they get the best. "
Hedley, $100.00 per hour is really low.
Once you find a niche in aviation where you work for the high rollers who have real money they wouldn't even look at anyone dumb enough to work for peanuts.
My cheapest hourly rate is 250.00 Euro per flight hour...ground briefing free..
Back to this discussion....Canadian flight instructors pay and how to make a decent living.....
I came close to getting a school underway some years ago and had employed a good friend who was willing to work under a system where we would offer flat rate PPL based on the TC minimums of 45 hours plus the test flight.
The secret was to charge a flat fee based on the mid average cost to get a license in Kanada, there were safeguards in our plan to ensure no one missunderstood the program.
I got to the stage of buying two C150's and had the school approved by flight training....however things went awry with TC M&M and in the end TCCA has banned me from ever owning another OC and ever teaching in Canada...so I am quite willing to pass on my ideas to others who are not on TC's no work in Kanada's list.
Cat
Hedley, $100.00 per hour is really low.
Once you find a niche in aviation where you work for the high rollers who have real money they wouldn't even look at anyone dumb enough to work for peanuts.
My cheapest hourly rate is 250.00 Euro per flight hour...ground briefing free..
Back to this discussion....Canadian flight instructors pay and how to make a decent living.....
I came close to getting a school underway some years ago and had employed a good friend who was willing to work under a system where we would offer flat rate PPL based on the TC minimums of 45 hours plus the test flight.
The secret was to charge a flat fee based on the mid average cost to get a license in Kanada, there were safeguards in our plan to ensure no one missunderstood the program.
I got to the stage of buying two C150's and had the school approved by flight training....however things went awry with TC M&M and in the end TCCA has banned me from ever owning another OC and ever teaching in Canada...so I am quite willing to pass on my ideas to others who are not on TC's no work in Kanada's list.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Trey Kule. I know exactly what you mean. In my mind, perhaps the best way to raise the standard of flight instructing is to raise the regulatory requirements for achieving an instructor rating. Require a higher number of total hours than the 200 needed for a CPL. Require actual commercial experience, tailwheel time, or experience in two-crew operations. Implement all these requirements for the granting of a class IV instructor rating as of January 1st next year, and grandfather in everyone already qualified under the old system. Within 5 years those who were only instructing to build time will be out and the demand for competent flight instructors will be soaring, along with the salaries.
Two problems with this route are that (a) the cost of flight training will temporarily go through the roof, (b) the flight instructing route of building time will be shut off to low timers, thereby flooding an already overcrowded market with more low-time pilots. I'm confident that these problems will be solved; as more experienced instructors become the norm, flight training times will go down as will the costs associated with flight training. Also, if tomorrow's 200-hr CPL wonder has been trained ab-initio by more competent instructors, perhaps there will be fewer accidents and insurance companies will take a look at lowering premiums for low-timers, thereby easing their first job. However, even if this is the case, there will be a lot of resistance to these regulatory measures by flight schools and others too short-sighted to see the long-term benefits.
Two problems with this route are that (a) the cost of flight training will temporarily go through the roof, (b) the flight instructing route of building time will be shut off to low timers, thereby flooding an already overcrowded market with more low-time pilots. I'm confident that these problems will be solved; as more experienced instructors become the norm, flight training times will go down as will the costs associated with flight training. Also, if tomorrow's 200-hr CPL wonder has been trained ab-initio by more competent instructors, perhaps there will be fewer accidents and insurance companies will take a look at lowering premiums for low-timers, thereby easing their first job. However, even if this is the case, there will be a lot of resistance to these regulatory measures by flight schools and others too short-sighted to see the long-term benefits.
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Cat Driver
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Lommer:
You must get to the root of this problem and to get there you must travel to Ottawa and understand the mentality of the power brokers in Tower C.
Once there and having done an indepth analysis of these people and how they arrived in their positions you will begin to understand why change is the furtherest thing from their agenda.
Look at from their position, why change anything when you are locked into a secure position with a good salary and benefits and absoutley no need to be held accountable to your employer ( The Canadian public )
I would strongly urge everyone here to get to know these parasites on a one on one basis and we will save wasting bandwith here on Avcanada looking for changes in Civil Aviation Flight Training under the present power brokers.
Cat
You must get to the root of this problem and to get there you must travel to Ottawa and understand the mentality of the power brokers in Tower C.
Once there and having done an indepth analysis of these people and how they arrived in their positions you will begin to understand why change is the furtherest thing from their agenda.
Look at from their position, why change anything when you are locked into a secure position with a good salary and benefits and absoutley no need to be held accountable to your employer ( The Canadian public )
I would strongly urge everyone here to get to know these parasites on a one on one basis and we will save wasting bandwith here on Avcanada looking for changes in Civil Aviation Flight Training under the present power brokers.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Lommer.
If we can keep the regulatory bodies out of it it would be better.
I think before we start requiring instructors to have more and varied experience we have to take a look at the objectives of a PPL and CPL.
For the PPL we are looking at providing a 'license to learn'...and by that I mean the basics. In the CPL there is of course more.
I want to be clear about this. all that additional experience in an instructor is good, but if I have seen a fault from new 200 hour hires it is that they are great at yelling airspeed alive, spouting CARS, and all that good stuff, but really weak on basic flying techniques. And I think possible it is because to many instructors are trying to teach ab initio pilots to become airline captains before they can fly straight and level.
Now that being said, how much actual time is necessary for someone to learn the basics and then learn to teach them? I dont know the answer...it is a real question. I do think that many flight schools do not properly supervise their class 4 instructors. And do to the instructors aspirations, they do not follow the prescribed syllabus...ie...a bunch more hours and a poorly trained pilot.
I will leave this to the discussion.
If we can keep the regulatory bodies out of it it would be better.
I think before we start requiring instructors to have more and varied experience we have to take a look at the objectives of a PPL and CPL.
For the PPL we are looking at providing a 'license to learn'...and by that I mean the basics. In the CPL there is of course more.
I want to be clear about this. all that additional experience in an instructor is good, but if I have seen a fault from new 200 hour hires it is that they are great at yelling airspeed alive, spouting CARS, and all that good stuff, but really weak on basic flying techniques. And I think possible it is because to many instructors are trying to teach ab initio pilots to become airline captains before they can fly straight and level.
Now that being said, how much actual time is necessary for someone to learn the basics and then learn to teach them? I dont know the answer...it is a real question. I do think that many flight schools do not properly supervise their class 4 instructors. And do to the instructors aspirations, they do not follow the prescribed syllabus...ie...a bunch more hours and a poorly trained pilot.
I will leave this to the discussion.
Cat + Kule, I hear what you're saying, and it's sad. Unfortunately, the regulatory way is the only way I can see of achieving meaningful change. If one company has a union or gets it right it does nothing for the dozens of other FTUs out there, and with the industry being so cutthroat that company will be lucky to last. A Canada-wide instructor's agreement or association seems likely to either not happen or be about as potent as COPA when it comes to effecting meaningful change. I'm all for professional associations (I'm an engineer by training), but you need almost the unanimous support of the potential members and the support of the regulatory agency to make them work. Seeing as there's severe problems with both these days, I'd rather tackle just the regulatory agency alone.
Hedley, I agree with you. These "problems" are not that big in my eyes, and totally surmountable, but any detractors are gonna portray them as the end of the world and advocates of this plan have to be prepared for that.
Hedley, I agree with you. These "problems" are not that big in my eyes, and totally surmountable, but any detractors are gonna portray them as the end of the world and advocates of this plan have to be prepared for that.
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Cat Driver
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Does anyone here know if TC changed the five solo take offs and landings requirement in the sea plane rating to having to do a test flight with a DFTE?
I understood there was a rumour going around that they were going to do that.
Lommer, if you have not ever had to deal with the top level of TCCA get down on your knees and thank what ever higer power you believe in that you have been spared that agony.
Trust me they are far below the common street thug to try and deal with at least a street thug is acountable under law....these people at the top of TCCA " think " they "are " the law and therefore can do what ever they wish lawful or unlawful.
Sad but true.
I understood there was a rumour going around that they were going to do that.
Lommer, if you have not ever had to deal with the top level of TCCA get down on your knees and thank what ever higer power you believe in that you have been spared that agony.
Trust me they are far below the common street thug to try and deal with at least a street thug is acountable under law....these people at the top of TCCA " think " they "are " the law and therefore can do what ever they wish lawful or unlawful.
Sad but true.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
