But seriously folks...

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:31 pm

I have never heard a fss repeat or try to make up cool phrases. But every once in a while i run into one who just will not shut up. Usually when i bring it to the attention of the station manager they turn out to be newbies though. So it sounds like we all have the same problem.

And remember that just as you cannot talk to center on the phone and listen to the radio at the same time, in a two crew environment we cannot maintain a good listening watch while doing our checklists and briefings. If there is a lot of chatter going on we are just going to ignore it until we get to the runway, and then we'll need a traffic update anyway.

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:46 pm

I have never heard a fss repeat or try to make up cool phrases.

Unfortunately, I have.

And remember that just as you cannot talk to center on the phone and listen to the radio at the same time, in a two crew environment we cannot maintain a good listening watch while doing our checklists and briefings

What do you mean I can't do that???

I'll have you know I can copy a clearance, listen to and acknowledge vehicles reporting off a runway, listen to you and acknowledge you saying you are going to position, do a weather ob and transmit it, all while making a cup of coffee and eating my lunch! (Okay, maybe I save the coffee making and lunch eating til there's no planes around-but the rest of it is true).

P.S.: I still haven't washed my floor, but I washed dishes, messengered my brother, AND killed a spider that was in the bathtub! Talk about multitasking!

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:51 pm

Aha, but i can copy the clearance, spot the vehicle on the runway, listen on a second frequency, deviate around the weather, and eat my sandwich. All while KEEPING THE SHINY SIDE UP. Top that my chair warming friend.

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:02 pm

Two frequencies? Is that all??? I have SIX, and three phone lines! Not to mention two printers going crazy with flight plans, NOTAMS, PIREPS, SIGMETS, AND audible alarms on my nav/approach aids going off becuase they always fail at the worst possible time! And the beeper on the microwave going off, because I just nuked my coffee for the third time since I poured it, and haven't had a chance to drink it!

And didn't you say something about TWO of you in that cockpit???

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:58 pm

Yeah but he's a liability, not an asset.

As for six frequencies, baloney. Doesn't Halifax take care of half of those for you now?

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:28 pm

lilfssister, you know one thing that just bugs the bejeebers out of me is when i punch up the "clearance button" which gives me #1 comm and the FMS so I can program it, I call for the clearance while my cohort is escorting, seating, briefing passengers and I am told to call when taxiing. By then, I should have the clearance. When I have both engines running, I am ready to go, traffic permitting. If I have to go back to be de-iced while we wait for clearance, it costs us money. Traffic is one thing but unnecessary delays are frustrating. Why do they make us wait till we have both engines running and are ready to declare the whole friggen airport our domain before we can get our clearance. In the city, I get my IFR clearance when we do the preflight well before the first pax start to arrive. Is that an ATC thing, a FSS thing, A Manops thing, just tradition or is tghere a valid reason. It happens all over Canada. In the old Lear I used to fly, you could fly a 172 for a month on the fuel we burn sitting waiting. If there is a valid reason, fine. Do you ever notice how noisey Metro's always park, whenever possible, under your window while we wait. The noise seems to speed things up. Just curious.

control_man · Post by **control_man** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:42 am

Oldtimer,
Coming from the IFR ATC side of things i believe their is a valid reason for the delay in getting a clearance from FSS. I can only speak for myself here and NOT the FSS people though. If when working multiple IFR NON RADAR airports, FSS called for clearances for aircraft not yet even having engines started the first thing out of my mouth would be "call me back when he's got engines running or taxiing". Reason being is I have to issue a clearnace procedurally for that departure based on current IFR traffic. I don't know how long you may sit on the ground before you start engines or taxi. I may have an aircraft decending to an interm altitude while anticipating your departure. Worse I may have to stick someone in the stack because you haven't yet departed. when you have engines running or are taxiing and FSS calls for clearance I have a pretty good idea how long it will take before your airborne and can plan traffic accordingly.
At larger controlled airports getting your clearance is not a major concern. Its usually your route with no amendments and your standard SID departure. You usually will get vectors on course because its a terminal environment. So your clearance timing is not that important in this environment as you basically just join the que for IFR departure.
Hope this answers your question to some degree.

CONTROL_MAN

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:44 am

I think the Control Man covered that pretty well re clearance delays (in other words, it's not OUR fault, we can only pass it to you when they pass it to us. And, I know you're burning fuel, and personally try to do everything I can to make things move as fast as possible, or keep you in the loop if I have a bunch of IFR inbound that may delay you, especially if there's deicing involved-as long as I'm kept in YOUR loop/planning. If we have a good time frame guesstimate on your startup time and/or deicing time, we can co-ordinate with the ACC to hopefully get them to plan a space for you to get out before your holdover time expires. Communication is the name of the game!).

Re six frequencies...no BS there my friend! The VHF MF, UHF MF, vehicle control, and monitor the PAL, 121.5, and 243.0. The FIC's have taken over enroute frequencies. (Also, the last level of service study decided that RAAS wil leave the FIC's and be taken over by Airport Advisory stations, though one would hope that there will be more than one person working in a FSS that has both local and remote AAS).

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:02 am

I just want to put a "thank you" on here to all of you who kept the thread on topic (or at least in the same vein), and answered a serious, information gathering question with serious answers (and a few good laughs)!

J.P.WISER · Post by **J.P.WISER** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:37 am

Dose this mean we can take the thread way off topic now???

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:04 am

Well, J. P., the rest of you can do what you want with it for a few hours, I'm heading out to spend a good chunk of an overtime cheque.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:51 pm

lilfssister, are you telling me that after switching all the RAASs from the nearest suitable FSS to the FIC, they are now going to move them back to the FSSs?

What is next? Moving the weather briefings back to the FSSs so we can actually get a useful briefing?

Mind you no complaint here if that is the case. The way things were done before NavCanada got involved was far superior.

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:45 pm

Yes, ahramin, that's what we were told. Tried to find it on the NC website, but couldn't (too much like work, on a day off, looking at the comapany website). It makes sense in many ways, especially considering if you have 20 or 30 or 40 people at an FIC, how often are they going to work a particular RAAS site? Easier to stay current in a 5-10 person site, for sure, where you'll get to work the RAAS just about every shift.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:48 pm

Absolutely. This should never have been changed in the first place. Do you know if this is planned for all FICs or just Halifax?

hydro · Post by **hydro** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:43 pm

All the FICS would lose RAAS, some may become their own FSS/AAS site , some may simply become MF/ATF's, and others would be run out of FSS/AAS sites.

For specific information on the plans, and to offer your own feedback click the Level Of Service Review - Proposal Document on the navcanada.ca website.

There are some other changes listed there as well with frequencies, navaids, weather reporting/forecasting times/stations.

hydro

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:16 pm

A little off topic, but a question for you folks. Does the speed limit order below 10 and 3 apply to both controlled and uncontrolled airports, or controlled only? I've asked many people, and the general consensus is split 50-50.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:05 pm

Controlled airports. Not control zones.

Airspeed Limitations
602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet ASL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots.

(2) No person shall operate an aircraft below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled airport at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.

cow-tipping-in-the-night · Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:58 am

Off topic, but not by too much:
Why oh why do pilots report airborne off a runway when there is a ground station in operation (either tower or fss)?!?

EG: "## radio, ABC is airborne off 34".
Ever notice those great big windows in the tower? They can see you! Maybe I'm not understanding the full picture - maybe it's a habit developed at RAAS sites? But it's certainly not required in the CARs, except by misinterpretation of 602.101 (e): "(report) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed" which really means: after all your wheels are on the ground and you've taxiied clear of the runway.

The reason I bring this up is because on the west coast I've heard alot of pilots (mostly students, but certainly not exclusively) reporting 'clear' of the runway after a touch and go.

EG: "## radio, ABC clear of runway 27"
To pilots listening in - wouldn't you assume that aircraft is now on the ground and no longer a conflict?

grrrrrr. my pet-peeve.
somebody enlighten me please.

602.100 MF Reporting Procedures on Departure
The pilot-in-command of a VFR or IFR aircraft that is departing from an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall

(a) before moving onto the take-off surface, report the pilot-in-command's departure procedure intentions;
(b) before take-off, ascertain by radiocommunication and by visual observation that there is no likelihood of collision with another aircraft or a vehicle during take-off; and
(c) after take-off, report departing from the aerodrome traffic circuit.

602.101 MF Reporting Procedures on Arrival
The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report

(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;
(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;
(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;
(d) when on final approach; and
(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.

Winglet · Post by **Winglet** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:56 pm

cow-tippin:

Where I work we have both a tower and terminal office. During the night we operate out of the terminal and only have a couple of windows that do not allow us to see approaches to all the runways. Therefore we will ask you to "report airborne" or "report down and off the runway" if another a/c is blocking our view of the taxiways.

When I'm working in the tower I have noticed a lot of pilots calling airborne and you are correct that I can see them not to mention hear them usually. It's like asking you to report overhead the airport when you are VFR...I can see you and usually hear you. But sometimes I'm busy watching for other aircraft and it's a nice update anyways if the pilot chooses to call it. Especially when it's crazy busy. I've decided it's better to ask someone to report joining downwind instead...overhead just sounds silly if you're VFR.

Hope that helps.

Apache64_ · Post by **Apache64_** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:59 pm

From my experience when operating in mfs, im usually requested to report clear of the active, when airborne, when clearing the zone, and report when im on the leg i told them i was joing the circuit on. When repositioning the aircraft on the field i call fss as courtesy, so they know what i am doing. Oh, iv also been asked to report overhead the field, when crossing to join the downwind.

Cheers

Apache

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:50 pm

I suppose it would depend on what visibilty the FSS has, as winglet said. That includes visibilty due weather, too, not just location of the FSS. I certainly ask for more reports if the vis is low. Probably TOO many, but have ONE aircraft with a total electrical failure on the runway during a blizzard, and you never forget it!

cow-tipping-in-the-night · Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:39 pm

hmm, yes, i see all your points.
The thing is, at this particular airport there is a 360 degree cab and no one is ever asked to report airborne. But then, pilots fly at many airports so you get used to operating in the same or similar fashion at each one. . .

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:38 pm

Well, Tip (your whole nick is WAY too long!), probably habit as you say. I think it was mentioned earlier that poor r/t instruction during training can be a factor, too. On our end of it, correct phraseology is (or was, back in my day-they keep changing the course in Cornwall) drilled into your head repeatedly at school, and gets checked a couple of times a year on the job. I know the prime objective of flight training, would of course be to teach people to fly the airplane, but good r/t helps when you're actually out there doing it.