RJ CRASH

[Maritimeclipper]

First off i would like to extend my condolances to the families of the loved ones lost.

I have been involved in aviation a long time, and have a varied background, from teaching to medevac to regional flying. I am new to posting here, but have been an avid reader for some time.

This accident appears to be a mistake by the crew. However anybody who has any experience in this industry will realize that mistakes do happen, and will always happen. If you think that they will not happen to you .... then you are a better troubleshooter then I.

The important question as I see it is how do two experienced pilots
(you do not get to be a skipper on an RJ without It....regardless of how the industry operates in the U.S.) make a mistake like that?
The answer would seem to be fatigue.

The working conditions set out by transport canada/ FAA are ridiculous. 14 hour duty days for people whose job depends upon being alert. Min rest, stand up overnights, split duty days, few days off, we have all done it. We need to start lobbying the regulatory bodies about the effects of something we have all dealt with. Better taxi ways, more notes on a chart, computer software that yells at you, none of those things are going
to prevent the next fatigue accident.

As a group we should be working together to change the duty time and rest regulations. Sure most operators from the small mom and pop operation to the major national carrier are going to disagree, because this means they need to hire more pilots..... I don' t see anything wrong with that.

There has been a lot of studies with regard to sleep, rest and the impact of those things on human performance, I think we need to move out of the stone age on this.


Cheers

[yycflyguy]

I don't disagree with you but one thing we as pilots can and should be doing more of is recognizing when we are fatigued and putting our foot down that we are "unfit for duty". This is always easier said than done.

I recognize that for many operators a pilot who calls in "unfit" before a flight from an away station causes havoc with scheduling and will probably face consequences of his actions. Like Cat's signiture said "the hardest part of flying is learning when to say no".

[55+]

According to a report on CNN this morning the crew, when they arrived at the airport early AM got into the wrong A/C and powered it up and a ramp attendant had to advise them. Combined with a departure(controlled airport and airspace) from a runway with a 40 deg heading differential as well as no edge lights or threshold end lights, there is definitely something very strange about this whole incident

[CAL]

how often are crews on airlines left to sit at the airport all night?...we have all done it on charter work or medevac stuff but at least we 'typically' have an FBO to sit it...can someone offer up some info on the standing duty day?

[JL]

I don't disagree with you but one thing we as pilots can and should be doing more of is recognizing when we are fatigued and putting our foot down that we are "unfit for duty". This is always easier said than done.

I recognize that for many operators a pilot who calls in "unfit" before a flight from an away station causes havoc with scheduling and will probably face consequences of his actions. Like Cat's signiture said "the hardest part of flying is learning when to say no".

A person who is fatigued will be the worst judge of whether they are fit for duty or not.

[yycflyguy]

I don't disagree with you but one thing we as pilots can and should be doing more of is recognizing when we are fatigued and putting our foot down that we are "unfit for duty". This is always easier said than done.

I recognize that for many operators a pilot who calls in "unfit" before a flight from an away station causes havoc with scheduling and will probably face consequences of his actions. Like Cat's signiture said "the hardest part of flying is learning when to say no".

A person who is fatigued will be the worst judge of whether they are fit for duty or not.

Agreed that fatigue will cloud the thinking process, but if you don't know your own body and know your own limitations, who else is going to suggest it?

[talkinghead]

According to a report on CNN this morning the crew, when they arrived at the airport early AM got into the wrong A/C and powered it up and a ramp attendant had to advise them. Combined with a departure(controlled airport and airspace) from a runway with a 40 deg heading differential as well as no edge lights or threshold end lights, there is definitely something very strange about this whole incident

I did the same thing about two years ago, I got into the wrong aircraft. A maintenance guy came over to me and asked what the heck I thought I was doing. BUT, the more I learn about this accident the more I want to hear about it. I am beginning to think it was just an out and out bad day.

[Stinky]

As far as Stand Up duty goes, they were likely assigned a hotel. The legal rest period would have been during the day while they were at home and they would have technically been on the night shift for work.
The problem is, pilots like stand ups because they sleep at night and enjoy the day off at home, when they theoretically should be sleeping.
This can become dangerous if the evening flight is signaficantly delayed. You are still good for it even if it leaves you only a couple of hours at the hotel, or none at all.
I'm curious to see if the previos nights flight was on schedule.
I am also curios as to the F/O's qualifications. It was stated that he has been with comair since 2004. Was he in the Comair training program starting in 2004 and then stuck in the right seat as part of an airline fasttrack program? I've heard Comair does this, has anybody heard of that?

[JL]

An interesting snippet from a 1999 NASA survey of fatigue factors in regional airline operations...

The data from flight crewmembers suggested
certain recommendations, including education
of industry personnel about fatigue issues, and
examination of scheduling practices. Education
plays a critical role in any effort to
address fatigue in operations. Physiological
background information and practical strategies
for fatigue management are two crucial
topics. Educating individuals in every part of
the system would maximize the benefit of this
activity. Analyzing scheduling practices and
identifying potential improvements may result
in reduced fatigue as well as other benefits to
operations.

The whole report can be found here under Research, Regional Ops.

http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/zteam/