http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060829/ap_ ... &printer=1Crash probe: Ky. runway route changed
By JEFFREY McMURRAY, Associated Press Writer 19 minutes ago
Investigators in the Comair jet crash that killed 49 people are looking into whether changes made to a taxiway during a repaving project a week ago confused the pilot and caused him to turn onto the wrong runway.
Federal aviation officials said Monday they were also looking at such things as runway lights, markings and signs for clues to what could have misled the pilots, as well as anything else that changed the configuration or appearance of the airport.
Both the old and new taxiway routes cross over the short runway where Flight 5191 tried to take off before crashing into a grassy field and bursting into flame, Airport Executive Director Michael Gobb told The Associated Press.
"It's slightly different than it used to be," said Charlie Monette, president of Aero-Tech flight school at the airport. "Could there have been some confusion associated with that? That's certainly a possibility."
It was unclear whether the Comair pilots had been to the airport since the changes to the taxi route.
Lowell Wiley, a flight instructor who flies almost every day out Lexington, said in an interview that he was confused by the redirected taxi route when he was with a student Friday taking off from the main runway.
"When we taxied out, we did not expect to see a barrier strung across the old taxiway," Wiley said. "It was a total surprise."
Investigators planned to use a high truck to simulate the pilots' view of the runways and taxiways in their efforts to determine why the jet turned onto a shorter runway before dawn Sunday. The lone survivor was a critically injured co-pilot who was pulled from the cracked cockpit.
Authorities also planned to prepare a full report on the pilots, including what they did on and off duty for several days before the crash, which was the worst U.S. plane disaster since 2001.
All discussions between the plane and the control tower were about a takeoff from the main strip, Runway 22, which is 7,000 feet long, National Transportation Safety Board member Debbie Hersman.
Somehow, the commuter jet ended up on Runway 26 instead — a cracked surface about 3,500 feet long that forms an X with the main runway and is meant only for small planes. Aviation experts say the CRJ-100 would have needed 5,000 feet to get airborne.
Both runways at Blue Grass Airport have lights along the edges, although the ones on the longer runway are much higher intensity. The long runway also has lights in the center. In the days leading up to the crash, those runway center lights were not working, according to a notice the Federal Aviation Administration sent to airlines.
Hersman told a news conference that investigators were "looking into reports about any work that had been done at the airport, what might have approved, what might have been proposed and what might have been completed. Anything that might have changed the configuration or appearances of the airport."
According to the NTSB database, there have been four accidents caused by pilots taking off on the wrong runway worldwide since 1982.
"It's not common," Bill Waldock, aviation safety professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Arizona. "It's right up there with lightning strikes."
Air traffic controllers are not responsible for making sure pilots are on the right runway, said John Nance, a pilot and aviation analyst.
"You clear him for takeoff and that's the end of it," Nance said. "It's not the duty of the controller to baby-sit every flight. It would have been great if he or she had, but they have other duties up there."
The FAA said a second air traffic controller would be added to the weekend overnight shifts at the airport beginning next weekend. Agency spokeswoman Laura Brown declined to give a reason for the decision.
According to a NASA database, a twin-engine jet taxied to the wrong runway at Lexington in November 1993 and the tower called to tell them about their mistake. The pilot reported that the confusing runway intersection contributed to the incident.
The NTSB will re-create the pilots' last 72 hours, focusing on fatigue and stress issues, Waldock said. Agents will review how many flights the pilots made, how much rest they had, any medication they took and even whether they had coffee that morning.
Hersman said the NTSB has interviewed the lone controller on duty at the time, reviewed records and transcribed the data and voice recorders. She said information retrieved from the cockpit voice recorder indicates that the preflight preparations had been "consistent with normal operations."
At the airport, flights were back to normal Monday. The daily 6 a.m. Lexington-to-Atlanta flight took off safely.
"Obviously there is some anxiety when something like this happens, but it is not something that would stop me from going," said Mark Carroll, 47, a computer consultant from Lexington who was boarding the flight to Atlanta.
The bodies of the 49 victims were taken to the medical examiner's office in Frankfort for autopsies. Kentucky's chief medical examiner, Dr. Tracy Corey, was uncertain how long it will take to identify all the victims. Comair had not released a passenger manifest and said it was seeking permission from victims' families to release the names.
Medical examiners used medical and dental records, personal effects and in some cases fingerprints to help identify bodies, Corey said.
Some victims were starting vacations, while others were returning to work after traveling.
Attorney Les Morris and his wife, Kay Craig Morris, had been headed to an Alaskan cruise. Marcie Thomason, an accountant in Washington, D.C., was heading home after returning to her native Kentucky for a wedding shower in her honor.
Thomason normally flew back to Washington out of Louisville.
"I guess she wanted to get back early and took the flight to Atlanta," said J. David Smith, a friend of her family.
Among other victims were a newlywed couple starting their honeymoon, a director of Habitat for Humanity International, an owner of a thoroughbred horse farm and a University of Kentucky official.
The only survivor, first officer James M. Polehinke, remained in critical condition Monday at the University of Kentucky Hospital. Police officer Bryan Jared burned his own arms reaching into the broken cockpit to pull him out.
The crash in Lexington was the deadliest in the U.S. since Nov. 12, 2001, when American Airlines Flight 587 plunged into a residential neighborhood in New York City, killing 265 people, including five on the ground.
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Associated Press writers Leslie Miller in Washington, D.C., Samira Jafari and Duncan Mansfield in Lexington, Joe Biesk in Frankfort, Brett Barrouquere in Louisville and Lisa Cornwell in Cincinnati contributed to this report.
Comair CRJ crashes in Kentucky
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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golden hawk
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I don't want to get into this conversation, as it's getting out of hand.
However, someone mentioned that it was 'legally dark' because sunset was at 7:04am. I would like to disagree with this statement, as night legally ended at 6:37am at KLEX the day in question.
Whether or not that has anything to do with anything, should be left to the investigators to decide.
However, someone mentioned that it was 'legally dark' because sunset was at 7:04am. I would like to disagree with this statement, as night legally ended at 6:37am at KLEX the day in question.
Whether or not that has anything to do with anything, should be left to the investigators to decide.
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co-joe
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So already the "events cascade" is coming to light. Not enough sleep, unlit runway where they probably couldn't see the far end, dawn when there are no shadows for definition, a change to the taxiways, thresholds near to eachother with similar alignment, atc missed it or wasn't able to help in time, and sadly yes two pilots made a mistake. 
Not offering any excuses here just trying to understand how I can learn from this and be a better safer pilot myself.
Its only been a few days, I bet a few more contributory factors come to light before the report comes out.
Not offering any excuses here just trying to understand how I can learn from this and be a better safer pilot myself.
Its only been a few days, I bet a few more contributory factors come to light before the report comes out.
Re: Comair CRJ
All we can do is hope that something is learned from this accident.ajet32 wrote:It can happen and the so called legal stand up with your 4-5 hour rest is the place to lay the blame. My first thought was how easily this could happen.
In my opinion, these "legal stand-ups", or "illegal layovers" as sometimes referred to by crewmembers, should be eliminated. Having done my fair share of these it is sometimes hard for those who have not done one to understand how hard they are on the body and the brain's ability to perform. Mistakes are a given. Disaster is a matter of time.
My hope is that the aviation community lobbies to have these banned.
Up here, the highways are wider but the ditches are deeper.
msnbc.com wrote: LEXINGTON, Ky. - The lone air traffic controller on duty the morning Comair Flight 5181 crashed cleared the jet for takeoff, then turned his back to do some “administrative duties” as the aircraft veered down the wrong runway, a federal investigator said Tuesday.
The crash killed 49 people — everyone on board except first officer James Polehinke, who was in critical condition Tuesday.
The jet struggled to get airborne and crashed in a field after taking off Sunday from a 3,500-foot runway instead of an adjoining one that was twice as long. Experts said the plane needed at least 5,000 feet for takeoff.
The air traffic controller had an unobstructed view of the runways and had cleared the aircraft for takeoff from the longer runway, said National Transportation Safety Board member Debbie Hersman.
Then, “he turned his back to perform administrative duties,” Hersman said. “At that point, he was doing a traffic count.”
Earlier Tuesday, the Federal Aviation Administration acknowledged violating its own policies when it assigned only one controller to the airport tower that morning. The policy is outlined in a 2005 directive requiring that control tower observations and radar approach operations be handled separately.
FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said the controller had to do his own job — keeping track of airplanes on the ground and in the air up to a few miles away — as well as radar duties.
Air traffic controllers say there should have been more than one person on duty at Lexington Blue Grass Airport's tower early Sunday morning when an airplane took off on the wrong runway and crashed, killing 49 people and critically injuring the first officer.
FAA wanted separate functions
Documents obtained by The Associated Press indicate that the Federal Aviation Administration wanted the control tower function separated from the radar function — in essence, requiring at least two controllers to staff an airport or a larger radar facility to take over radar duties.
At the Lexington Blue Grass Airport, tower controllers are responsible for aircraft on the ground and in the air a few miles from the airport.
Another controller in a separate location called a "tracon," for terminal radar approach control, handles traffic in a radius of about 35 to 58 miles and an altitude of 10,000 feet.
A Nov. 16, 2005, FAA memo says: "Operations may be combined in the tower (2 positions) or split between tower and tracon, so long as the radar function is separated from the tower function." The memo was signed by the FAA's air traffic manager for Lexington.
At the time of the accident, the controller at the Lexington Airport was doing both tasks, according to controllers who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are involved in the investigation.
The FAA said Monday that it is scheduling a second controller to the Lexington airport tower during the weekend overnight shift. No reason was given for the change.
John Goglia, member of the National Transportation Safety Board, said the FAA must have added a controller to help prevent such accidents. "The FAA must think so, because they took action," he said.
Would 2nd controller have helped?
Goglia said it's impossible to prove that another controller would have made a difference. "He might have seen it," Goglia said. "If it were daylight, he probably would have."
The accident happened about an hour before sunrise. The day after the fatal crash in Kentucky, a second controller was in the tower on the midnight-to-8 a.m. shift.
FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said two controllers are in the tower on weekdays but only one controller was scheduled for the weekend overnight shift because traffic was significantly lighter.
Doug Church, spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, said there has been a net loss of 1,081 controllers in the last three years, according to the FAA's own figures. The numbers dropped from 15,386 in September 2003 to 14,305 in August 2006, due largely to a wave of retirements.
Many were hired as replacements for the controllers President Reagan fired in 1981 for striking the government illegally. Nearly half the current controllers are expected to retire in the next decade.
"Young man, was that your landing or were we just shot down?"
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twice_banned
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Federal Aviation Administration acknowledged violating its own policies when it assigned only one controller to the Lexington tower.
The air traffic controller had an unobstructed view of the runways and had cleared the aircraft for takeoff from the longer runway, said National Transportation Safety Board member Debbie Hersman.
Then, "he turned his back to perform administrative duties," Hersman said. "At that point, he was doing a traffic count."
The controller, whose name was not released, had been working at the Lexington airport for 17 years and was fully qualified, Hersman said.
The air traffic controller had an unobstructed view of the runways and had cleared the aircraft for takeoff from the longer runway, said National Transportation Safety Board member Debbie Hersman.
Then, "he turned his back to perform administrative duties," Hersman said. "At that point, he was doing a traffic count."
The controller, whose name was not released, had been working at the Lexington airport for 17 years and was fully qualified, Hersman said.
Athabascan Quote: "Know one knows the ways of the wind or the Caribou".
Read the post above yours, it pretty much explains it all.twice_banned wrote:Haven't had the time to scan four pages of posts to see if this was already asked, but how did the tower controller not notice and then advise the crew that they were rolling on the wrong runway???
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Flaps 1 Billion
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Because it apparently wasn't a caravan:Flaps 1 Billion wrote:hey Mig, is there any info about that 208? I can't find anything about.
thanks
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbc ... 008/NEWS01
It was apparently a C401...Flaps 1 Billion wrote:hey Mig, is there any info about that 208? I can't find anything about.
Crash of small plane in Kentucky killed seven from same family
Twin-engine Cessna hit Breathitt mountain
JACKSON, Ky. (AP) -- The seven people killed when a small plane crashed in the wooded mountains of Eastern Kentucky were members of the same family: a Texas couple, their four children and the children's grandmother, an airport official said yesterday.
No one survived the fiery wreck Monday in an area so remote that rescue workers rode all-terrain vehicles until the land became so rugged that they had to walk the rest of the way to the crash site.
The wreckage was scattered atop a Breathitt County hill, Jackson Fire Chief Roger Friley said.
The National Transportation Safety Board identified the pilot as Jason Christie, 35, and the passengers as his wife, Sherri Christie, 34; her mother, Peggy Morgan, 59; Sherri Christie's daughter, 15-year-old Brittani Gossett; and the Christies' children, Holden Christie, 3, Cole Christie, 22 months, and Kendall Christie, 2 months.
Dr. Emily Craig, the state's forensic anthropologist, said recovery of the remains would likely take two days because of the terrain.
Craig said her team is still working on positively identifying the bodies. Breathitt County Coroner Bobby Thorpe said the bodies were so charred that dental records and possibly DNA would be needed to make positive identification in the coming weeks.
The plane crashed about five miles north of the Hazard airport, where it was trying to land, said the Rev. Ricky Ray, pastor of First Baptist Church in Hazard.
The Christie family had planned to spend a few days with the elderly parents of Peggy Morgan, the pilot's mother-in-law who also died in the crash, before taking their teenage daughter on to a Virginia boarding school, Ray said.
Jason Christie's father, Roby Christie, went to the command center yesterday at the base of the mountain and spent the afternoon talking to authorities. He said the family was headed to a girls boarding school to drop off Brittani.
"They were going to have a nice family weekend," he said. "Unfortunately, they vanished against that mountain."
Roby Christie said the toughest part of the crash is losing his grandchildren.
"I wish you could have seen pictures of them. They were beautiful children," Roby Christie said.
The twin-engine Cessna had taken off from Kickapoo Downtown Airport in Wichita Falls, Texas, said Kathleen Bergen, spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration in Atlanta.
There had been rain, thunder and light fog in the area of the crash for much of the afternoon.
"I thought it was a mine explosion," said Raymond Baker, who said he heard the plane crash. His home is one of three in the remote area.
He said a few minutes after the crash, "there was a big mushroom of smoke when the fuel tank exploded."
Baker said he and his neighbor hiked up to the scene.
"The plane was broke all into pieces. It was just the loneliest place you ever seen," he said.
Link to story...
Even more information: The controller only had 2 hours of sleep beforehand.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/30/plane.crash/index.html
No, it was not due to working hours, he had 9 hours off.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/30/plane.crash/index.html
No, it was not due to working hours, he had 9 hours off.
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co-joe
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"Hersman said it was the flight's captain... who taxied the aircraft into position at the start of the wrong runway. Clay then turned over the controls to the co-pilot... who was flying the plane when it crashed. Hersman said that was standard procedure."
I've heard of airlines that do this. Personally I think it's a contributory factor. So the fo has his head in the cockpit with the checklist while the captain taxiis and then the capt says "you have control" and cleared for take off comes over the radio.
It would be like someone sitting you down in the right seat wearing a blind fold, taking it off, and bammo! power set...airspeed alive...V1 OH SHIT!
I've heard of airlines that do this. Personally I think it's a contributory factor. So the fo has his head in the cockpit with the checklist while the captain taxiis and then the capt says "you have control" and cleared for take off comes over the radio.
It would be like someone sitting you down in the right seat wearing a blind fold, taking it off, and bammo! power set...airspeed alive...V1 OH SHIT!
Co-Joe. In larger aircraft there is no other option but to have the captain taxi the plane into position, he's the only one that has a tiller bar to steer it. (I believe some Airbus have a second tiller on the right side but I'm not positive. I know for a fact that the RJ only has ONE and its on the LEFT side) Yes you have SOME steering ability from the right seat but not nearly enough to make a 90 degree turn onto the runway. The F/O does the before takeoff checks, and takes control when they are done and the aircraft is lined up. Not sure how else you could do it....
As per most airline checklists and SOP whereby the heading cross check is done at the gate prior to engine start and then once again after lining up on the runway.CAL wrote:I guess you could compare your indicated heading with the runway you are supposed to be on....
How could they both miss that critical check?
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co-joe
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Oh. Well that's a dumb oversight on bombardier's part me thinks. And yes a heading check would definitely help things. I do like the transfer of control idea when flying PMA's but that's a different situation.bcflyer wrote:Co-Joe. In larger aircraft there is no other option but to have the captain taxi the plane into position, he's the only one that has a tiller bar to steer it. (I believe some Airbus have a second tiller on the right side but I'm not positive. I know for a fact that the RJ only has ONE and its on the LEFT side) Yes you have SOME steering ability from the right seat but not nearly enough to make a 90 degree turn onto the runway. The F/O does the before takeoff checks, and takes control when they are done and the aircraft is lined up. Not sure how else you could do it....
