Friendly fire.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:35 am

Now I'm no expert, and I wasn't there, but...

How do you mistake a group of Canadian/NATO armoured vehicles for Taliban?

Do these guys even have anything that remotely looks like a LAV?
Ofcourse, just cause the news says they hit vehicles doesn't mean they were dismounted troops, we all know how accurate the news is...

I could be wrong here, but I believe that A-10s are out of the USAF inventory and are used exclusively by the ANG and USAF reserve. If that's true, that would make this another case of weekend warriors killing Canadians.

A NATO spokesman, Mark Laity, said the international force's soldiers flew roughly 800 missions in the country during the past month and used their weapons in about 450 of them — all without an friendly-fire incident until now.

"It shows you how rare [friendly fire] is," Laity said.

Extremely rare, yet US aircrew have hit Canadian troops twice in the country.

goates · Post by **goates** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:13 pm

Sounds like the Air Force still has some A-10s in use themselves.

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=70

I think we're going to have to wait a little for the true story to come out about this.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:37 pm

Ya, I can't remember where I heard that... oops, more mis-information on the interweb.

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:30 pm

Hang on a second, boys..we weren't there. There's all sorts of things that could have happened to cause this...the first thing that crossed my mind was that the ground guys that called in the airstrike got their coordinates wrong, and called it in on top of themselves. Also, IIRC, it was 05:00 Local, so darkness may well have been a factor.

EI-EIO · Post by **EI-EIO** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:27 pm

they really are the gang that can't shoot straight. Every time the US bombs a civvy village, the Canadians take the crap from the locals because they can't see the USAF star on the aircraft (and wouldn't care either).

Haven't seen any blue on maple leaf by UK Harriers or Dutch F-16s yet to my knowledge. The A-10 is doing a good job of CAS from what I read but goddammit this is happening too often. Pity Hillier nixed a CF-18 detachment out there - at least their pilots would be expected to know and care where Canadians are at.

If only Bin Liner would be proved to be out of Afstan so the Americans could be persuaded to leave Afstan to NATO so there would be an end to the separate US command.

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:17 pm

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopSto ... yline=True

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:24 pm

Come on give the air US air boys a break. Look at it this way they've only killed 5 of the 32 Canadian troops in Afganistan so far or roughly 16%. That's a whole lot better than they did in the first Gulf war when they accounted for roughly 25% of the allied casualties.

http://www.cryan.com/war/

In official reports, the Pentagon has admitted that of the 148 American servicemen and women who perished on the battlefield, 24 percent of the total killed in action were victims of 'friendly fire'. Eleven more Americans were killed when un exploded Allied munitions blew up, raising the 'friendly fire' percent to 31 percent. Most solders said that the thousands of unexploded mines and bomblets they encountered, were more dangerous than enemy fire.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:20 pm

Like Northy said, wait until the investigation is over with.

As for A-10 being soley flown by weekend warriors, I don't think so.

You should know better than that EI-EIO, not all planes are equal, and especially the GR2 (British Harrier) and F-16's. The A-10 doesn't strive on it's electronic jammed cousin the F-16 or it's antiguited neighbour the Harrier. It's not an all weather attack platfrom, which means the pilot needs to see the target. As Northy said, 0500 doesn't shed alot of light in that part of the world.

Do you honestly think that the pilot is feeling good about what he did? War is a hell of a thing, and it's unfortunate that friendlies perish as a result of green on green.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:48 pm

Nark wrote:You should know better than that EI-EIO, not all planes are equal, and especially the GR2 (British Harrier) and F-16's. The A-10 doesn't strive on it's electronic jammed cousin the F-16 or it's antiguited neighbour the Harrier. It's not an all weather attack platfrom, which means the pilot needs to see the target. As Northy said, 0500 doesn't shed alot of light in that part of the world.

Do you honestly think that the pilot is feeling good about what he did? War is a hell of a thing, and it's unfortunate that friendlies perish as a result of green on green.

From the other thread:

Nark wrote: Beacon final:

Just because you were in Air Cadets doesn't make you an expert.

Someone already pointed out that Maj. Schmit was driving a Falcon, not an F-15. Also perhaps your secuirty clearance is higher than mine, but could you tell me who and where the F-22's are flying, 'over there'?

I was shown up earlier for thinking that A10s were entirely reserve and ANG. Looks like I was wrong. In that spirit and since we're handing people thier asses over trivial matters, I thought I'd lend a little support to Beacon Final.

So Nark,

RAF doesn't have any Harrier GR 2s. The only have GR 7 (which are being upgraded to GR9 btw.)
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/strength.html

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=70
Using night vision goggles, A-10/ OA-10 pilots can conduct their missions during darkness.

Thunderbolt IIs have Night Vision Imaging Systems (NVIS), goggle compatible single-seat cockpits forward of their wings and a large bubble canopy which provides pilots all-around vision.

They can loiter near battle areas for extended periods of time and operate under 1,000-foot ceilings (303.3 meters) with 1.5-mile (2.4 kilometers) visibility.

And isn't it blue on blue? Not green on green? Or is that some Marine thing?

Seriously though,

The US government and Military Brass makes a big deal about how accurate their weapons are, and how great their battle management technology is, how it is now information warfare. Yet they consistantly fire on the wrong targets. I know the pilot probably feels like shit, and this one is a little more understandable than the Schmit incident. But still, it's a hard pill to swallow when the guys taht were called in to help do the most damage. I time cooler heads may prevail. It's just a real pisser the second time round.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:04 am

I'll wipe the egg off my face for calling the Brits Harrier a GR2.

However in reference to Green on Green:

Red= enemy
Green= good guys
I've never heard of blue on blue. Maybe it is a Marine thing.

Again, the A-10 is still a visual attacker. They need to SEE the target in order to drop ordinace. It's up to the pilot to make sure it's the right target, and better than 9 out 10 times, it is.

I was watching something on friendly fire incedents. The Brits did a good study on what the pilot goes through during a strike. No mission is ever cut and dry.

I don't know the details of this partcular mission, however maybe the Forward Air Controller messed up. Why are you and most people so quick to blame the pilot or America?

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:47 am

Aren't all CAS missions visual? I don't know of any fighter that can use cannon against ground targets without seeing them.

Pilot pulled the trigger and America has a track record. I'm not saying it's right or necessarily just, but that's why the blame goes where it does. Besides, PIC is always responsible. (especially if no one really knows what happened)

I've always heard redforce vs blueforce. The Brit Officer I was interviewed called it blue on blue. I'll give you that one though.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:33 am

I think it would go along way to slow the anti americanism in this country if when things like this happen that the president would make a direct apology to the families of those killed.

I'm far from anti American but this kind of thing is happening way too often. When was the last time a Canadian killed an American with friendly fire.

EI-EIO · Post by **EI-EIO** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:26 am

RAF Harriers in Afstan are 7As
http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/deplex.html#antiterror

The only Mk2 was Sea Harrier.

Nark - I hope that the pilot would feel the same remorse as you or I - that's what you'd expect. Maj Schmidt (of the PPCLI bombing) did not live up to the expectations I think we share:

In your personal presentation before me on 1 July 2004, I was astounded that you portrayed yourself as a victim of the disciplinary process without expressing heartfelt remorse over the deaths and injuries you caused to the members of the Canadian Forces. In fact, you were obviously angry that the United States Air Force had dared to question your actions during the 17 April 2002 tragedy. Far from providing any defence for your actions, the written materials you presented to me at the hearing only served to illustrate the degree to which you lacked flight discipline as a wingman of COFFEE Flight on 17 April 2002.

I do have anger about this but as to who exactly to direct it towards, I am willing to wait for the Board of Inquiry since the pilot in this case may have been relatively blameless. Nevertheless there was a severe breakdown here and someone's ass better end up kicked.

niss · Post by **niss** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:14 am

I don't know of any fighter that can use cannon against ground targets without seeing them.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-64.htm

The Apache has IR and thermal imaging so they can see through fog, cloud, night, etc.....

Just thought I would add that....procede with your conversation.

Jeremy Kent · Post by **Jeremy Kent** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:52 am

I've met Pte. Graham's brother... he's dating a friend of mine. I can't even imagine what he and his family are going through right now. Is anyone else starting to wonder why we're still in Afghanistan? I don't mean to belittle the contribution and sacrifice of all our brave men and women there, but this is such a tragedy and a waste and it seems that one can't turn on the TV anymore without hearing of yet another.

goates · Post by **goates** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:09 pm

Blue on blue fire (this is the term I have always seen used too) has always been apart of any war, it's just that casualties from enemy fire are so low now that friendly fire deaths stand out far more. As the Americans have more troops and aircraft running/flying around, the odds are they are more likely to be involved.

Apparently there is one case recently where one British tank took out another British tank, killing two crew members, so it isn't just the Americans that have problems with this. Many others have also had cases of this, although since the Allies tend to wipe out their enemies, we don't here about cases from the other side very often.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_f ... nd_persons

In this latest case, I would bet that there are a lot of factors involved (coordinates given, weather, day/night/twilight etc). Blaming it entirely on trigger happy Americans without knowing the details is a little short sighted.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:14 pm

niss wrote:
I don't know of any fighter that can use cannon against ground targets without seeing them.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-64.htm

The Apache has IR and thermal imaging so they can see through fog, cloud, night, etc.....

Just thought I would add that....procede with your conversation.

AC-130s too. That's why I said fighters, they don't have trainable guns.

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:15 am

Looking through an NVG or IR, is still visual.

Sorry to nit pick.

cone · Post by **cone** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:30 am

Dudes, these A-10 guys live and breathe CAS. That's all they do. Did they mess up? Possibly. But what are the odds that some FAC sittting back a few hundred yards, under fire, messed up? Don't get emotional over these things until you know what happened. Friendly fire happens in every war, it's a fact of war, Canada hasn't been in an all out war since Korea so we sometimes forget that. It's very easy to criticize the actions of people who are under fire, in a dusty, smokey, confusing, battlefield from the comfort of a desk back home.

And for my own 2 cents, send the CF-18s...

niss · Post by **niss** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:41 am

Looking through an NVG or IR, is still visual.

Sorry to nit pick.

I meant you dont actually have to see with your own eyes.....(Ie seeing ppl in/under vehicles with the thermal imaging, etc.)

cone · Post by **cone** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:42 am

Oh and you can do CAS through cloud with JDAM (GPS guided bombs), but obviously its not preferred. In fact a lot of CAS in Afghanistan/Iraq has been done with B1s/B-52s from way up high with JDAMs.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:48 am

Though I agree that JDAMS are useful little peices of kit, I read somewhere that Airforces in Afganistan had been going to guns more often than they had since the inception of the precision guided bomb because of the close quarters fighting putting Allied troops in the blast radius of bombs/rockets.

Freaking mud-hole to be stuck in. Best wishes to all.

goates · Post by **goates** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:58 am

Saw this on the news last night.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national ... unded.html

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:48 am

It's very easy to criticize the actions of people who are under fire, in a dusty, smokey, confusing, battlefield from the comfort of a desk back home.

... send the CF-18s...

God, it pisses me off to agree with cone twice in one day

Skipper · Post by **Skipper** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:07 pm

I read an article in which some of the top Canadian brass were discussing how difficult it is to arrange air support missions using another country's equipment. That goes for everything from medivacs and transportation, to carpet bombing.

Our troops don't have anything useful at their disposal, so they rely on the Americans to fill in. Of course the U.S gives their own troops and missions top priority, so when we call for help, they have to scrape up whatever they can spare and hot foot it over to our fight. All the while the information is being relayed third or fourth party to the pilots

Imagine jumping right into the middle of a heated argument doing 280 knots at 500' and watching the whole thing unfold while someone else is trying to tell you who's who.

Everyone is just stretched a little too thin if you ask me