Deja Vu; Canadian killed by US friendly fire in Afghanistan

[Sulako]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/ ... endly.html

Two U.S. fighter jets mistakenly fired on a Canadian platoon taking part in a massive anti-Taliban operation west of Kandahar on Monday, killing one soldier and injuring dozens of others.

The incident occurred at about 5:30 a.m. local time when two U.S. A-10 Thunderbolts, operating under NATO command, responded to a call for support from soldiers trying to take a Taliban stronghold along the Arghandab River.

In a statement, NATO said the aircraft engaged friendly forces during a strafing run, using cannons.

The dead Canadian — who is the 33rd to die since the mission started in 2002 — has not been identified.

Five of the 30 soldiers wounded in the attack will be airlifted to hospitals outside of Afghanistan. Their conditions are not known.

Officials said the rest of the wounded soldiers should be back on duty within days.

Brig.-Gen. David Fraser, the Canadian Armed Forces general who is in charge of the NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, promised the incident would be thoroughly investigated.

"We've got to find out what were the details there," Fraser said.

"We do have procedures, we do have communications, we do have training and tactics and techniques and procedures to mitigate the risk, but we can't reduce those risks to zero."

It isn't the first time that Canadian troops have died in so-called friendly-fire incidents in Afghanistan. Earlier in August, Master Cpl. Jeffrey Walsh died after apparently being shot accidentally by a fellow soldier.

However, the friendly-fire case that created the most controversy and outrage in Canada came in 2002, when a U.S. fighter jet mistakenly dropped a bomb on Canadian forces as they conducted a training exercise. The bomb killed four Canadians from the Edmonton-based Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry and injured eight others.

4 Canadians killed a day earlier

Monday's incident comes less than 24 hours after four Canadian soldiers were killed in the same district while taking part in Operation Medusa, a NATO air and land offensive aimed at purging Taliban militants from the dangerous Panjwaii area.

Two of the four Canadians killed on Sunday have been identified as Warrant Officer Frank Robert Mellish, who grew up in Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia, and Warrant Officer Richard Francis Nolan, from Newfoundland.

The military has not publicly identified the other two soldiers, at the request of their families.

Nine other Canadians were injured in the fighting, one seriously.

The military reported about 200 militants had died.

With the latest deaths, 32 Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan since Canada's mission began in 2002.

With files from the Canadian Press

[prang one]

All combat pilots should know of the American John Boyd's 'OODA Loop' that was originally used for air-to-air combat but is now used for combat as a whole.
It was originally meant to stand for
Observe
Orientate
Decide
Act
if you could do this quicker than ones opponent then you 'should' win.

Well it would appear that out American cousins have now decided to take this one step further and altered the tried and tested formula to:
Observe
Over-react
Destroy
Apologise

I spoke with an A10 pilot many years ago, and when this subject came up, he told me it was because "We (the US) fire first and ask questions later."
He intimated that this was a good thing I might add .

I've lost count of the video clips I've seen over the last couple of years where some vehicle / bridge / building etc gets splashed, accompanied by a soundtrack of shouted "F*ck yeahs", "God damns" and general whooping and screaming.

Thinking back to my sorties in Bosnia and Iraq (first time), I won't say I was calm about the whole thing (far from it) but none of those "gung ho" shouts for one minute entered my head.
It just makes me wonder about the difference in mentality between the US and other NATO pilots when it comes to taking another life.

My thoughts are with the Canadian soldiers' families.

[20DMEYYZ]

very regretable incident ! sad to hear more bad news for our forces on duty for freedom !

i agree we need MORE ident procedures & LESS reaction . i cannot speculate , but these engagments involve small arms threats . not like some T-72 is rolling in on our boys ! hopefully , the Air Combat Support could hold the triggers until positions are fully verified ?

also to bad we couldn't withdraw & send in the B-2's to finish off the enemy the way they COULD !

[Glory.]

All combat pilots should know of the American John Boyd's 'OODA Loop' that was originally used for air-to-air combat but is now used for combat as a whole.
It was originally meant to stand for
Observe
Orientate
Decide
Act
if you could do this quicker than ones opponent then you 'should' win.

Well it would appear that out American cousins have now decided to take this one step further and altered the tried and tested formula to:
Observe
Over-react
Destroy
Apologise

I spoke with an A10 pilot many years ago, and when this subject came up, he told me it was because "We (the US) fire first and ask questions later."
He intimated that this was a good thing I might add .

I've lost count of the video clips I've seen over the last couple of years where some vehicle / bridge / building etc gets splashed, accompanied by a soundtrack of shouted "F*ck yeahs", "God damns" and general whooping and screaming.

Thinking back to my sorties in Bosnia and Iraq (first time), I won't say I was calm about the whole thing (far from it) but none of those "gung ho" shouts for one minute entered my head.
It just makes me wonder about the difference in mentality between the US and other NATO pilots when it comes to taking another life.

My thoughts are with the Canadian soldiers' families.

There really isnt any difference, rather, it is the entire mentality of being in the armed forces that would generate the gungho calls. You are one individual that may not condone these actions..but watching a few of these videoclips and then generically labeling the entire US force as a bunch of meatheads, while excluding other armed forces is pretty dumb in itself. Canadian military troops most likely do the same thing. You would have to to stay sane.

[Beacon Final]

Major Scmit and the other dink back that bombed our boys (back in 2002) from the PPCLI where nothing but goddam fukin cowboys..... i am guessing that is the case here. Remember seeing the footage of that idiot saying "I am rolling in - in self defence" give me a break. The moron saw TOP GUN and FIREBIRDS way to many times. Wow he saw small arms fire... big threat against a F-15 eagle.

Its easy for me to say that.... becasue its true. Imagine if that was your brother, son, buddy etc. killed the other day for NO GOOD REASON. Yes I am mad. I know its true the US is a fault. I am in the CF and know alot about NATO ops and how things work. WHAT they need is a TRUE multi national force in the ops center with JAG officers from countries making the attack call. The Americans are pulling to many strings... it would be best for us and them to have more of a mulit national command structure...... they can no longer hide behind the "fog of war" excuse..... we are not carpet bombing Hamburg here. Its 2006 and they have a-10, f-18s, and 22s etc etc etc over there.

Till today this mission had my full support. Now its wavering and I am asking myself questions as to our purpose over there. Is it to allow girls to go to school and people to have the freedom to vote??? (which I hope it is) Or pick up the slack the US wants us too. The Canadian gov't has some things they need to do if they want to keep the CF in Afganistan.

Macleans put had a great article on this in the mid Aug issue. Canadians dont know why we are over there getting killed.... 33 since 2002. Because 9/11 happened? This war is not about saving freedom for us, and it not about saving the world from Hitler. People need to know what this is all for. Everyone has their own opinion. Noone can blame Harper and his friends.... they did extend this mission but the Liberals sent us over there. And we can't just up and leave like the NDP wants.... its a mess and there will be no winners.

The worst thing is that IRAN is next door and who knows what is going to happen next, with Bush around for another little bit.

My last point is that what would happen if CANADIANS killed US troops? There would be hell to pay then.

Trust me, I dont hate Americans but this is where we are at. I know that Mr. Bush or other US officials are not loosing sleep over Canadian dead from American actions.

[EI-EIO]

thread merger?
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=22000

[gapper]

Before our trusted leaders of this country decided to send troops in to Afghanistan, they should have read all the history of this country and the countless attempts to invade and overthrow this country.

[Spokes]

Perhaps before we see too much mud slinging it would be a good idea to wait for more details about what happened.

BF: if you were as knowlegable about miltary matters as you claim, you would remember that Schmit flew an F-16 Falcon, not an Eagle. That said, I agree, having seen all the reports on the news and the results after the inquiry, it seemed to me that these where two guys that were looking for an excuse to bomb something. The deserved alot more punishment than they got in my opinion.

Now, both these incidents are quite different. Schmit stumbled on a training exercise and jumped to the conclusion they were bad guys and 'rolled in self defence' (he didn't sound like he was concerned for his safety to me). In yesterdays incident it sounds like two A-10 Thunderbolts were called in to provide air support to an ongoing firefight. Somehow they pointed in the wrong direction and unfortunately fired at the wrong people. This is a terrible tragedy. But reasonable people would wait for the outcome of the investigation before they mindlessly shoot mud at the guys who it would seem they dont really like to start with.

I too have some military experience, and in exercise (luckily) there have been times when we have attacked the wrong target. It happens.

Rest in peace lads....

[mellow_pilot]

While I agree that many of us have jumped the 'blame' gun, myselft included , it is true that the US makes this mistake often.

In Iraq 1, an Apache lit up a Marine unit because they didn't take drift into consideration when planning their flight.

In Iraq 2, they downed a couple Brit choppers. Smoked god-knows how many civies.

Afganistan, Canucks twice, wedding, civies all the time.

For a military that prides itself on cutting edge technology and battle space management, net-centric warfare, all aimed at knowing more than the enemy, the seem to mess-up rather frequently.

What ever happened to good ole', "Enemy is north of my smoke, fire!"?

I really don't know what to think, but I can tell you I would fully support sending Canadian Fighters to protect Canadian Soldiers. After all, isn't that part of why we have them?

[Driving Rain]

Come on give the air US air boys a break. Look at it this way they've only killed 5 of the 32 Canadian troops in Afganistan so far or roughly 16%. That's a whole lot better than they did in the first Gulf war when they accounted for roughly 25% of the allied casualties.

http://www.cryan.com/war/

In official reports, the Pentagon has admitted that of the 148 American servicemen and women who perished on the battlefield, 24 percent of the total killed in action were victims of 'friendly fire'. Eleven more Americans were killed when un exploded Allied munitions blew up, raising the 'friendly fire' percent to 31 percent. Most solders said that the thousands of unexploded mines and bomblets they encountered, were more dangerous than enemy fire.

[Spokes]

While I agree that many of us have jumped the 'blame' gun, myselft included , it is true that the US makes this mistake often.

In Iraq 1, an Apache lit up a Marine unit because they didn't take drift into consideration when planning their flight.

In Iraq 2, they downed a couple Brit choppers. Smoked god-knows how many civies.

Afganistan, Canucks twice, wedding, civies all the time.

For a military that prides itself on cutting edge technology and battle space management, net-centric warfare, all aimed at knowing more than the enemy, the seem to mess-up rather frequently.

What ever happened to good ole', "Enemy is north of my smoke, fire!"?

I really don't know what to think, but I can tell you I would fully support sending Canadian Fighters to protect Canadian Soldiers. After all, isn't that part of why we have them?

All true enough. If your the big guy on the block, and involved in the most fights, I suppose this will happen to you most often. But, not a good track record. Don't forgrt HARM missile fired into the airport at the Sofia Airport in Bulgaria (I beleive).

"Enemy is north of my smoke, Fire" What happens when there is smoke all over the place? It is difficult.

CF-18's in Afganistan? Intersting thought. Of course they would never find a hotel good enough.

[mellow_pilot]

Coloured smoke. I doubt the Taliban makes smoke canisters a high proiority when ordering from Sears of Islamabad. No point in marking your position if you're a geurilla. (ofcourse that would only work till they caught on and got their own to mess things up)

[Nark]

Beacon final:

Just because you were in Air Cadets doesn't make you an expert.

Someone already pointed out that Maj. Schmit was driving a Falcon, not an F-15. Also perhaps your secuirty clearance is higher than mine, but could you tell me who and where the F-22's are flying, 'over there'?

Having your own fighters in the air covering your back is great, however you have to be able to support them. Canada doesn't have the ability or resources to have their Hornets flying 24/7 in Afghanistan. This is why organizations like NATO are formed. Pooling your toys together makes for a better time.

[snag]

regrettable incident ofcourse,

I'm sure there's a statistic on how often these f-ups happen. The reason you usually hear about the US doing it is a function of how many more of them are in the middle east than any other country.

Didn't just last week Canadian soldiers fire on a bike with two school kids, and the next day, on two occasions, at the Iraqi Police driving toward a checkpoint with clearly marked vehicles?

Could have just as easlily been us firing at the Americans if we had aircraft capable of such support missions.

War is tough.

[Wilbur]

Mistakes happen, but they don't happen often. Some of you are dredging up crap from what, 20 years ago? They have flown 10's of thousands sorties in these different conflicts and have had few "friendly fire" incidents. Does anyone know the ratio of "friendly fire" incidents to sorties flown? I suspect it is amazingly low. I wouldn't be surprised if their "friendly fire" incident rate is lower than the commercial aviation accident rate in Canada. If that's the case, would it be fair for the Canadian public to generalize that all Canadian commercial pilots are cowboy morons?

[xsbank]

Isn't an A-10 a Warthog? Wouldn't that be a cool a/c for firebombing, instead of those wheezy single-engine things?

[Spokes]

The A-10's official name is the Thunderbolt. Warthog was the name lovingly given to this aircraft by its pilots.

[grimey]

While I agree that many of us have jumped the 'blame' gun, myselft included , it is true that the US makes this mistake often.

The US also flies far more sorties than all other allied nations combined. Canada has had friendly fire incidents, they had one last week and they'll have more in the future. If Canada's military was as active as the US, what makes you think the number of incidents would be lower? Out of thousands of pilots, and tens of thousands of soldiers and marines, how many have been involved in friendly fire incidents? And how many of those can be attributed to the negligence of the person pulling the trigger?

[RFN]

While we bicker back and forth about whether or not the Americans are idiots (too close to call);
think about the guys on the ground that have to try and come to terms with seeing (at last report) 30 of their buddies chewed up by an A-10. I'm sure lots of us on here have been up close to the front end of one of those at airshows or whatever. Seeing a 30mm rotary cannon fired into an infantry platoon would put me in the looney bin for good. Knowing that those guys were hurt / killed because of a mistake just rots.
There can be no worse fate for a soldier.

[Wilbur]

Global news reported tonight that an unidentified Canadian military source in Afgahnistan told them that the airstrike was called by someone on the ground to attack that Canadian position. If true, it means the American pilots attacked the target they were given and the mistake is not theirs. The news did not speculate as to who may be responsible for making the call, but if this version of events is accurate, it could well have been another Canadian who made the error. Hence the value in awaiting the investigation results before throwing rocks and blaming our friends and neighbours to the south.

[mellow_pilot]

I saw an interview with soldier from the unit in question. He said they were back from the front line getting ready to go into combat. They didn't call for any support, and he would speculate who did. It seemed (from the short sound bite) that they had just dismounted and were still with thier vehicles. I wish the news would actually do more than 30 seconds per story so you coud get the whole thing. I really would have liked to hear everything he had to say.

[gli77]

Canadians and Americans alike have become a pathetic example of humanity. Our eyes light up and senses tingle at the sight of the latest war machines. Our culture thrives from violence and loves to see it until the stark reality hits. There has not been a war on our continent for almost two hundred years yet we love to promote, watch and study war waged elseware.

A very wise man once said:

"Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events." - Winston Churchill

Seems 100% applicable.

[grimey]

Isolationism led to its own problems, and didn't stop Japan or Germany from declaring war on the US. In any case, please don't make sweeping generalizations about what people think or feel.

[gli77]

The quote has nothing to do with isolationism. Isolationism was an approach of some Americans towards the war in Europe and has absolutely nothing to do with my post.

Take a step back and look at North American entertainment, culture and news. Then spend some time in Europe and see the stark difference.

[mellow_pilot]

Different places, different culture? What are the chances!?

The point?

Churchill wasn't arguing against war. He argued against following the whim of sheep, like sheep. Hell, Winston liked a good warplane as much as the next guy. On visiting a Spitfire sqn that just recieved new models with cannon installed, he talked the tech sgt into letting him give them a try (the cannons).