Dropzone incident - C182

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:00 pm

This was a post taken from Dropzone.com, anybody heard of this.

I have limited details on this incident, but it is unusual, serious, and hasn't otherwise been discussed. It wasn't at my DZ and so I'm relying on what acquaintances have said, such as the plane owner (who wasn't the DZO), and a jumper who talked to one of the people on the plane.

Basically, a C-182 at an Ontario, Canada drop zone got caught by bad weather, ended up in a high speed dive, bent the wings, and had a tandem Cypres fire inside the aircraft.

It happened pretty much at the end of July 2006. The day was a very hot, hazy summer day. Another pilot confirmed how poor the visibility was, as a training flight of his at a nearby airport was cancelled because of it. So it was a day that might be prone to overdevelopment (of storm clouds), and one which would make it hard to see approaching weather. Powerful, damaging thunderstorms took place across southern Ontario in the days around that point. Yet I was told that at the time & place of the flight, there weren't supposed to be any storm clouds present according to flight service. It's not clear whether that refers to an aviation forecast possibly from hours before, or recently observed precipitation conditions on radar.

The flight went up, got significant altitude, nearly flew into a storm cloud, got into a heavy down draft, and dove away at high speed. It's not clear whether it was the haze, over confidence, or a fast developing storm that got them too close. It's also not clear to what degree the dive might have been due to downdrafts, trying to escape the situation, an inadvertent stall and poor recovery, or other loss of control. I was told they were "going down in excess of 200 mph". This continued until a pullout at low altitude. The airplane didn't land at the DZ, but landed at another airstrip nearby.

The aircraft's wings were structurally damaged, with ripples in the wing skins, and the spars have likely taken a permanent set. Even the initial repair estimate was $30 k Cdn, and I've seen estimates like that rise once an aircraft is opened up and more damage found. At first the story told to the aircraft owner was that it was turbulence that bent the wings, but Cessna's are pretty tough. When excessive speed was also mentioned, the story became more believable. One guesses that the wings were bent during a high speed, high G, low altitude pullout.

A tandem Cypres fired inside the aircraft during the descent. Firing parameters for the tandem Cypres are 78 mph (6800 fpm) downwards at 1900 ft AGL. I'm not sure whether the aircraft was really descending quite that fast, that low. There might have been other pressure changes in the cabin during high speed maneuvering that fooled the Cypres to some degree, although Cypres' don’t fool easily and their algorithms seem robust. In any case, whatever kind of fast, low altitude dive is required to set off the Cypres doesn't sound healthy.

I heard the jumpers felt lucky to get down alive -- it must have been a wild ride.

One question from all this will be to what degree the pilot and skydivers pushed the weather. It's not like it never happens that we skydivers try to get one more load in before approaching bad weather, because we think there's still time before the weather arrives, even if we are aware that a gust front may well hit before the storm clouds are overhead. While pilots may be told that dangerous winds, lightning, hail etc. may occur many miles from thunderstorm clouds, people simply are unlikely to believe that a typical storm cell is going to be that kind of worst case scenario.

Another question will be how well the pilot handled the situation, once the load discovered they were getting trapped. I don't know if the the pilot badly mishandled his aircraft, or pulled off a save in difficult conditions.

That's all the info I have.

bandit1 · Post by **bandit1** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:13 pm

Anyone have any idea what DZ it was?

Braun · Post by **Braun** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:31 pm

Dropzone

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:37 pm

what's a tandem Cypres? A parachute or something?

I don't feel like Googling today.

-istp

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:59 pm

A cypress is a little computer about the size of an IPOD that is capable of deploying a reserve parachute if it measures a high rate of descent below a specified altitude.

McPhoo · Post by **McPhoo** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:30 pm

A DZ is a Drop Zone. An areea sanctioned by TC for the purpose of sky diving activities.

The Cypress is one brand of a piece of safety equipment that skydivers use now-a-days. It is a device that will deploy the reserve chute at a pre-determined altitude if the diver fails to deploy the chute manually himself. For example if the diver was unconsious or unable too for some reason. It has saved a lot of skydiver bacon for sure.

At risk of sounding stupid I will venture some opinion on the aircraft issue. A downdreft does not mean you have to be doing 200mph. You should fly at or below your Va and if there was structural damage it should have only been because of heavy turbulance. If said aircraft was doing 200mph I would be asking the pilot some pointed questions if I was the owner. Unfortunatly many DZ pilots are cutting thier teeth flying at a DZ and have very little experiance (it was my first job). Things can and do get beyond the skill of the pilot and things can happen. I got my first flying job because some shmoh tried to barrel roll the C182 and didn't know what he was doing and popped some rivets and almost ripped his tail off. He was fired on the spot and I just happened to call two hours later looking for a job. Good timing for me yes. The other guy was lucky to live through that one. Anyways, that was a bit off topic. All I wanted to really say is that over speeding the aircraft should have nothing to do with some poor weather. Sounds like someone freaked and lost it for a bit. Glad everyone lived. Could have ended very different.

imfsub12 · Post by **imfsub12** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:40 am

Yes i'm a DZ pilot and coming down around 6800 FPM isn't a joke.. MY VSI is pegged at 6000 FPM... (and i know i'm doing more) and coming down around 180 mpg isn't nothing...(but thats the MAX) if its clean air you are coming down in nothing to worry about.. just do it in a safe manner and you are fine...

bandit1 · Post by **bandit1** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:33 am

On descent with PAC 750, Porter, Cresco, King Air,

I used to pass the jumpers on the way down and be on the ground before them all the time.

If, for example, you let them out at 12grand, you cut the power all the way in low/ground idle, spin around them once and join a mid downwind, tight base and land without touching the power levers.

It goes pretty quick but gets a little monotonous after around a 1000 hours of flying right over the airport up and down

Naveed · Post by **Naveed** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:25 pm

I did DZ in Ontario but left at the end of June due to some safety concerns I had, I'm kinda curious if it was my old zone...but it wasnt unseen for us to decend at Vne, infact if we didnt we'd probably get a talking to

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:32 pm

" but it wasnt unseen for us to decend at Vne, infact if we didnt we'd probably get a talking to "

You got to be kidding??

Beacon Final · Post by **Beacon Final** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:53 pm

VNE is a bit much... but you should be close... I descend at the VNE on the ASI but the placard says I can go faster....... due to wing tip extensions.

Working at a DZ can be safe or not... depends on the CP.

BF

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:30 pm

Yeh Clunk, I sit here and wonder what in hell makes these guys go so far into the unknown zone performance wise just to fly for peanuts.

VNE is there for a reason, nevermind rough air penetration and manouvering speeds have any of these people ever considered the risks of worn bearings, bushings etc in the flying surfaces?

If one of them ever does come apart in the air my first suspision would be due to flutter.

These operators are lucky I don't work for Transport because I'd be on e'm like fleas on a dog.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:50 pm

So it would follow that all these wonderful safety thingies such as , Human Factors, PDM, CRM, SMS etc. are just pablum fed to the babies with no benefit to their safety?

Or is low IQ a norm in the pilot pool?

Naveed · Post by **Naveed** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:27 pm

It doesnt make sense, its CP taking advantage of low time pilots cause most or want the hours no matter what. It probably was my old DZ since the CP there is a bit off the rocker, theres no reason why somebody should risk thier license by "cloud breaking" in planes that are barely VFR certified, i used to play the ol cloud dodge game and get reprimanded for it for using what, 10 mins more in fuel, I didnt need the hours so theres no need for that kinda headache and if more dropzones would realize that they need pilots just as much as jumpers maybe there could be some happy medium,haha and thats my rant

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:34 pm

So am I to understand that these outfits have TC approved Chief Pilots?

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:13 pm

I've watched these jump planes for a while now and can't imagine the amount of maitenance they have to pay out in order to save a few dollars in gas. Climbing at full throttle and best rate until the jump then pulling the power and descending just under Vne. I wonder how many cylinder heads they go through. It's kinda like the guy that drives really fast to save gas, cause the less time you're driving the less fuel you're burning right?

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:27 pm

justplanecrazy wrote:I've watched these jump planes for a while now and can't imagine the amount of maitenance they have to pay out in order to save a few dollars in gas. Climbing at full throttle and best rate until the jump then pulling the power and descending just under Vne. I wonder how many cylinder heads they go through. It's kinda like the guy that drives really fast to save gas, cause the less time you're driving the less fuel you're burning right?

It's not so extreme as that... and we don't go through a ton of cylinder heads... knock on wood. Shock cooling is an expesive thing we try to avoid.

The engine wears in the exact same cycle each time... which I understand is actually relatively healthy for it. We don't climb at best rate all the time and I know for one that descending at vne is not only stupid but absolutely unnecessary in a dz operation flying a cessna.

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:03 am

Cat Driver wrote:So it would follow that all these wonderful safety thingies such as , Human Factors, PDM, CRM, SMS etc. are just pablum fed to the babies with no benefit to their safety?

Or is low IQ a norm in the pilot pool?

My only question is: How does someone who is competent enough to hold a pilot's license... fly into a

thunderstorm... while vfr?

IIRC, thunderstorms are not so good at sneaking around the countryside.

...blue skies

bandit1 · Post by **bandit1** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:05 am

Hey Naveed,

you talking about Gananoque?

There's an accident waiting to happen!

Jumpus Pilotus · Post by **Jumpus Pilotus** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:17 pm

Here is the name of DZ. It's not the one near Kingston, it's the one near the Quebec's boarder. Can't drop any names/places on avcanada without getting sued...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/g ... ead#unread

The name of the place is on the first page, one before last post.

buck82 · Post by **buck82** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:33 pm

For one season i did the skydive gig, 160 mph was used in descent in the 182, MAP was kept up, and only reduced in the lower couple of thousand feet before landing, and as much as possible decsents were straight ahead with gentle turn when needed.

It took a little over 5min to get down from 10g's, if owners want you to do it faster then they should either get a bigger plane and do more jumpers/load, or buy a plane that can make it safely down in 1 min. To be bullied (and i know its hard cause at this stage you're pretty new to commercial flying) into operating the plane otherwise; or worse yet told 'everthign's fine' or 'we do this all the time' is unacceptable.

Thankfully, i worked for a very good operator who from day one made it deadly clear that to fly a fifty year old plane (cessna) any other way was simply russian roulette.

I survived the season, and the only thing that needed changing on the plane was the oil.

Jumpus Pilotus · Post by **Jumpus Pilotus** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:18 pm

I flew for two season at a DZ where the owner wanted the plane to go as fast as possible. I remember having a call from him in July, asking me why on May 5th, load 14 took me 0.6 instead of 0.5... What the f**k, that was 400 loads ago!!!! A traffic while I was on jump run I guess...

Anyway, the procedure there was full power, reduce to 15" on jump run, reach 80mph and dive it to VNE (189 mph) keeping the power at 15''

No slowing down on approach and no 3 miles finals. Not rare to fly over the threshold at 150-160 mph. (2800 feet rough runway)

I now fly for a DZ where the owner is a pilot himself, thus way more carefull in the way the planes are handled. The procedure here is different.
Right after take off, reduce power to 25'' increasing power with altitude to keep it at 25 and end up full power at around 5K.

Reduce power on jump run to cool off the engine and then full power during the descent untill reach 25'' reducing power to maintain 25. Airspeed has to be on the top of the green arc, wich is around 160 mph. All landings are made at slow speed with full flaps.

I think it makes way more sense like that. The planes I fly are in top shape conditions because for once, I have a boss who knows that taking care of a plane means lots of maintnance money saved.

A good instrument I had on all of the jump plane I've flown is an EDM-800. It measures, among others, the cylinder head temperature. One of the features is the rate of cooling. When you maintain it below 40 rate of cooling, you know you are far from shock cooling, wich is one of the worst thing to do to an engine.

Every DZ Chief Pilot has it's own way to use the jump plane, but VNE is definitly not a zone to mess up with.

McPhoo · Post by **McPhoo** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:21 pm

I'm with you there buck 82. We ran the same numbers and had the same results. No need for cracked jugs. Thats just poor airmanship. Our old C182 was a 56' straight tail with several feet of duct tape holding the interior together, and a tired airframe. The only really nice thing was the engine and the nice prop. Bob Hoover once said something to the effect that he flew with plenty of guys in the AF that pushed things to the edge. Those that went too far got flowers on their caskets and their mama's got a nicely folded flag. The rub is you don't know your over the edge till your over. Personaly I like sucking air too much to be that stupid.

McPhoo · Post by **McPhoo** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:25 pm

Perfect, Jumpus Pilotus!! You should type that out and send it to all the DZ fax machines. Maybe some newbs will read it and learn something. Why is it that so many operators don't see the connection between safe ops and increased business?

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm

imfsub12 wrote:Yes i'm a DZ pilot and coming down around 6800 FPM isn't a joke.. MY VSI is pegged at 6000 FPM... (and i know i'm doing more) and coming down around 180 mpg isn't nothing...(but thats the MAX) if its clean air you are coming down in nothing to worry about.. just do it in a safe manner and you are fine...

What type? 6800fpm in a piston?

Dropzone incident - C182

Dropzone incident - C182

desent

DZ

Here is the DZ

Re: desent