Darfur Death Toll Is Hundreds of Thousands Higher Than Reported
United States government death toll estimates for the war-torn Darfur region of Sudan in Africa underestimate the count by hundreds of thousands of lost lives, according to a new study.
Some experts estimate that the conflict between government-sponsored militias and rebel groups, which began in February 2003, has killed as many as 500,000 people so far
Eric Reeves, an influential Sudan activist and professor at Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts, says that the U.S. government's low estimates were politically tainted.
"The State Department has not wanted Darfur to be perceived as the enormous genocidal crisis that it is, for lack of an effective way of responding," he said.
Full story here
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... eaths.html
Where is the outrage? Time to make a difference, try writing your local MP or doing whatever you can to thrust this story into the daily discourse.
Where is the morality in letting these people be murdered? Is Rwanda already out of the public conscience? Canadians and Canada could make a tremendous difference in the lives of these poor people, make it happen.
Darfur Death Toll
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
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Glen Quagmire
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i second the issue that quagmire brings up. we in n. america have become way to complacent in our relative isolation of comfort. more than half the world is bleeding and most people are not pulling their share. the absolute least we can do in a free democratic society is to leverage our MP's to speak up.
as quagmire says, send emails or phone your MP and voice your concern. here is a link to find the MP in your area.
http://canadaonline.about.com/gi/dynami ... ource%3Dsm
as quagmire says, send emails or phone your MP and voice your concern. here is a link to find the MP in your area.
http://canadaonline.about.com/gi/dynami ... ource%3Dsm
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Cat Driver
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What exactly do you people think Canada could do to change what is happening in the Sudan?
How many of you have been there and seen the logistics nightmare that the Sudan is, even if you could help how would you do it?
How many of you have been there and seen the logistics nightmare that the Sudan is, even if you could help how would you do it?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
It's not so much what people in Canada can do to change what is happening in Darfour, Cat. It's what the international community could do if they decided that they are unwilling to allow another Rwanda. If we continue down the path that we're on right now, we're saying that we're willing to stand by and watch another genocide take place.
In Rwanda, the UN and it's member nations stood idly by and ignored what they were being told by those on the ground there. It was inconvenient to intervene, and there were no white folks or natural resources that made Rwanda important to those in power in the developed world.
Canadian politicians are so partisan, and the habit of attacking those in power (and clinging to it) that the only way to get some sort of rapid action is to make those in the house of commons believe that they need to effect change in order to get re-elected. If enough Canadians raise their voices, we can make our elected "leaders" recognize that we're not willing to sit by and watch another Rwanda. They in turn can at least make an actual effort on the international stage.
As far as Sudan being a logistical nightmare, I won't disagree with you...but one of the benefits of a modern military and the power projection capability that the developed world has is the ability to establish and maintain a military force in remote regions. We're not talking about high-intensity combat here...and every major military in the Western world has recently taken major steps towards the concept of lighter forces...wheels instead of tracks, and planes instead of ships for deployment and supply.
If even 10% of the commitment that NATO and other countries have made to Iraq and Afghanistan was made to Darfour, we would no longer see the spectre of genocide sitting on the horizon.
We as human beings have a moral obligation to speak up. If we choose to sit idly by, then we deserve to feel shame every time that "Darfour" is mentioned. Isolationism is no longer an option.
In Rwanda, the UN and it's member nations stood idly by and ignored what they were being told by those on the ground there. It was inconvenient to intervene, and there were no white folks or natural resources that made Rwanda important to those in power in the developed world.
Canadian politicians are so partisan, and the habit of attacking those in power (and clinging to it) that the only way to get some sort of rapid action is to make those in the house of commons believe that they need to effect change in order to get re-elected. If enough Canadians raise their voices, we can make our elected "leaders" recognize that we're not willing to sit by and watch another Rwanda. They in turn can at least make an actual effort on the international stage.
As far as Sudan being a logistical nightmare, I won't disagree with you...but one of the benefits of a modern military and the power projection capability that the developed world has is the ability to establish and maintain a military force in remote regions. We're not talking about high-intensity combat here...and every major military in the Western world has recently taken major steps towards the concept of lighter forces...wheels instead of tracks, and planes instead of ships for deployment and supply.
If even 10% of the commitment that NATO and other countries have made to Iraq and Afghanistan was made to Darfour, we would no longer see the spectre of genocide sitting on the horizon.
We as human beings have a moral obligation to speak up. If we choose to sit idly by, then we deserve to feel shame every time that "Darfour" is mentioned. Isolationism is no longer an option.
Please don't tell my mother that I work in the Oilpatch...she still thinks that I'm the piano player at a whorehouse.
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Glen Quagmire
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Cat
Question you have to ask is how much is a life worth, or in this case 500,000 lives. Is it worth sorting out a logistical problem? Is it worth working hard? Is it worth millions of dollars? Is it worth five minutes of your time? But I forgot that an African life is not as valuable as a Western life; that is the only reasonable explanation I can come up with.
More can be done than the obvious of putting boots on the ground. Although a large peacekeeping force would certainly end the genocide tomorrow. Properly trained, equipped and with a strong mandate of course, not a Rwandan type mandate of genocidal supervision.
Simply Canadians could have an impact on Darfur by making it a point of interest, opening up dialogue. People need to hear the story of these men, woman and children being raped and mutilated, needless preventable suffering. Hopefully that generates some outrage or concern, those concerns need to be passed on to local MP’s, a letter to your local paper, TV station, the CBC whatever. People need to put pressure on the government and media to start paying attention. With a possible election looming this could cause quite a stir in the House of Commons. Who knows something might actually be done about the horrible atrocities taking place. A glaring spotlight cast on the region would undoubtedly be harmful to the murderous campaign brought forth by the Sudanese Government and the Janjaweed.
Is one life, let alone 500,000 worth five minutes of your time to write a brief email or two? If in fact you are too busy I apologize for wasting your time.
Question you have to ask is how much is a life worth, or in this case 500,000 lives. Is it worth sorting out a logistical problem? Is it worth working hard? Is it worth millions of dollars? Is it worth five minutes of your time? But I forgot that an African life is not as valuable as a Western life; that is the only reasonable explanation I can come up with.
More can be done than the obvious of putting boots on the ground. Although a large peacekeeping force would certainly end the genocide tomorrow. Properly trained, equipped and with a strong mandate of course, not a Rwandan type mandate of genocidal supervision.
Simply Canadians could have an impact on Darfur by making it a point of interest, opening up dialogue. People need to hear the story of these men, woman and children being raped and mutilated, needless preventable suffering. Hopefully that generates some outrage or concern, those concerns need to be passed on to local MP’s, a letter to your local paper, TV station, the CBC whatever. People need to put pressure on the government and media to start paying attention. With a possible election looming this could cause quite a stir in the House of Commons. Who knows something might actually be done about the horrible atrocities taking place. A glaring spotlight cast on the region would undoubtedly be harmful to the murderous campaign brought forth by the Sudanese Government and the Janjaweed.
Is one life, let alone 500,000 worth five minutes of your time to write a brief email or two? If in fact you are too busy I apologize for wasting your time.
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scubasteve
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I just happened to watch Hotel Rwanda last night for the first time and was floored. I know a little about what is happening in Sudan but I admit that it is easy to go about our comfortable life here. All lives are valuable and everyone should have access to a safe place to live, food, water and a basic education. My girlfriend and I have talked about trying to adopt children from places like the Sudan but that seems to be full of paperwork and bureacratic nightmares as well. You can add the AIDS problem in Africa as something that we could do more about too. There are apparently stockpiles of generic drugs in Canada meant for Africa that are being held back by bureacracy. So much can be done but the political will power isnt there.
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Springbok 3
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Dont let situations like Darfur, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Malawi, Congo, Swaziland, Zambia, Ivory Coast, Nigeria and most other shitholes in Africa get you down. Most importantly do not get all weepy eyed and start digging into your pockets. Africa is one big deep hole in which millions of Western dollars are pumped into every year and because of the rampant corruption, over population, ethnic hatred, disease, drought, natural disasters etc, the money hardly ever makes its way to the real folk at the bottom of the chain.
Western countries like Canada should rather cut their foreign financial aid packages and put the money to better use right here at home where it is also needed. Look after our own interests first and then if we can offer assistance to the African billions, it should be in the form of education, agricultural assistance, small business development and not in the form of massive cash handouts. It might also be a good idea to include sex education at the top of the priority list and get them to use profilactics to curb the spread of AIDS and to try and head off the population explosions that are only exacerbating the situation.
I know this might sound harse to many out there say we are not doing enough but it is the reality of the situation. Africa`s problems are for the most part (excluding natural disasters) caused by Africans and they are simply reaping the negative repercussions of their own devices. The vast majority of African blacks are their own worst enemy due to the fact that their are extremely xenophobic, racist and intolerant towards other ethnic groups. They do not hesitate to implement ethnic cleansing policies such as the Rwandas and Dafurs and it has been a way of life for them since the dawn of African time and we as civilised Westerners will not change that.
Let Africa rule Africa. White colonialists had been forcably removed from almost every African country and self majority black rule imposed by new governments incapable of sustaining any form of responsible government and no amount of training, experience and support from former colonial powers will change the African mind set. The Africans wanted us out and they are still doing their utmost to "chase every colonial white into the sea" (unquote) and so why should we bother.
The only shining example of an African success story which contradicts the above is Botswana but that is another story.
Western countries like Canada should rather cut their foreign financial aid packages and put the money to better use right here at home where it is also needed. Look after our own interests first and then if we can offer assistance to the African billions, it should be in the form of education, agricultural assistance, small business development and not in the form of massive cash handouts. It might also be a good idea to include sex education at the top of the priority list and get them to use profilactics to curb the spread of AIDS and to try and head off the population explosions that are only exacerbating the situation.
I know this might sound harse to many out there say we are not doing enough but it is the reality of the situation. Africa`s problems are for the most part (excluding natural disasters) caused by Africans and they are simply reaping the negative repercussions of their own devices. The vast majority of African blacks are their own worst enemy due to the fact that their are extremely xenophobic, racist and intolerant towards other ethnic groups. They do not hesitate to implement ethnic cleansing policies such as the Rwandas and Dafurs and it has been a way of life for them since the dawn of African time and we as civilised Westerners will not change that.
Let Africa rule Africa. White colonialists had been forcably removed from almost every African country and self majority black rule imposed by new governments incapable of sustaining any form of responsible government and no amount of training, experience and support from former colonial powers will change the African mind set. The Africans wanted us out and they are still doing their utmost to "chase every colonial white into the sea" (unquote) and so why should we bother.
The only shining example of an African success story which contradicts the above is Botswana but that is another story.
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
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Cat Driver
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Springbok we are wasting our time trying to explain reality to these guys, they just don't understand.
Africa is best explained by looking at how a country evolves once the country is returned from European rule to black rule.
South Africa as short as ten years ago was a modern well run country, the hand wringers and do gooders brought back black rule.
Like every African country that was returned to black rule S.A. is like an express train with no brakes heading down hill into the stone age.
My suggestion would be to bring a few million Africans from random tribes to Ottawa and give them self government.This new country within a country will have its own border and can not expand ever in area. All Canadian civil servants and any leftie daydreamers who want to live in this new nirvana will be given their houses free and clear with citizenship in this new country.
You and I will have the contract to supply barbed wire, masonary for fence building and broken glass for the fence tops and we will have the contract to supply the armed guards for the rich who can afford it.
Cat
Africa is best explained by looking at how a country evolves once the country is returned from European rule to black rule.
South Africa as short as ten years ago was a modern well run country, the hand wringers and do gooders brought back black rule.
Like every African country that was returned to black rule S.A. is like an express train with no brakes heading down hill into the stone age.
My suggestion would be to bring a few million Africans from random tribes to Ottawa and give them self government.This new country within a country will have its own border and can not expand ever in area. All Canadian civil servants and any leftie daydreamers who want to live in this new nirvana will be given their houses free and clear with citizenship in this new country.
You and I will have the contract to supply barbed wire, masonary for fence building and broken glass for the fence tops and we will have the contract to supply the armed guards for the rich who can afford it.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Springbok 3
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scubasteve
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I agree that there is corruption and the money doesnt end up where it should but shouldnt we try to change that - put people in place to disperse the funds and watch where it is used instead of handing over a cheque and walking away? Are you saying that because there is corruption and deep rooted problems there that we should let people starve or slaughter eachother? Yes there are problems here at home but we all have a place to live, food to eat (even if it is only KD), a vehicle sometimes 2 other various tos to distract us, we have all been educated at least to a basic standard and we all have computers with which to communicate and discuss our views and openly criticize our government without fear of reprisal. We are blessed so why should we stand by while others suffer? because its hard to fix things? because its always been that way? because blacks and other ethnic groups are inferior? I say Bullshit to that
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Cat Driver
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Scuba, The continent of Africa is emense beyond beliefe and no one really knows how many millions of people there really are there.
And you can not change a culture because you think yours is better.
By the way how are your Canadian soldiers doing handing out candy to the children in Afghanistan?
And you can not change a culture because you think yours is better.
By the way how are your Canadian soldiers doing handing out candy to the children in Afghanistan?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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politically_incorrect
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Darfur is reason/example #1,523 of why the UN is the world's most useless organization. A bunch of idiots running around in suits, some of them also wearing funny hats, pretending to be making efforts to solve the world's problems.
In the meantime, their meetings often look like a gathering where someone's trying to set a record for the highest number of water glasses and/or carafes on a table at once. A bunch of useless tits, all of them.
What's worse: Allowing one dominant group inside a sovereign country to kill off the other side, thus eliminating conflict, OR, having several UN nations send in powerless referees so that the next 50 years can be spent having said country 10hrs away from a full-blown civil war, with a broken economy, suicide bombers, etc?
In the meantime, their meetings often look like a gathering where someone's trying to set a record for the highest number of water glasses and/or carafes on a table at once. A bunch of useless tits, all of them.
What's worse: Allowing one dominant group inside a sovereign country to kill off the other side, thus eliminating conflict, OR, having several UN nations send in powerless referees so that the next 50 years can be spent having said country 10hrs away from a full-blown civil war, with a broken economy, suicide bombers, etc?
"Food for Oil", anyone, anyone? I still don't understand why more UN people aren't in jail for that massive corruption scandal.Darfur is reason/example #1,523 of why the UN is the world's most useless organization
Pull the plug, turn out the lights on the UN. What a waste of money, time and effort. Tell the bureaucrats to get a real job.
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Cat Driver
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" You truly are one sick @#$! cat "
Why Bartbandy I don't understand your comment.
Your government leaders have sent your soldiers into a situation wherein they get slaughtered by the very individuals they are trying to help.
So what makes me one sick @#$!?
Because I try and point out the futility of trying to change a culture that does not want to be changed?
In your myopic eyes you may see me as a sick @#$!, but I am only relating to reality...where are you coming from? At best you are illinformed at worst you are a zealot like the ones blowing up those Canadian soldiers.
Cat
Why Bartbandy I don't understand your comment.
Your government leaders have sent your soldiers into a situation wherein they get slaughtered by the very individuals they are trying to help.
So what makes me one sick @#$!?
Because I try and point out the futility of trying to change a culture that does not want to be changed?
In your myopic eyes you may see me as a sick @#$!, but I am only relating to reality...where are you coming from? At best you are illinformed at worst you are a zealot like the ones blowing up those Canadian soldiers.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat, your point may not be too far off the mark. I don't think the afghans are interested in Canadians 'helping them', that much is pretty obvious. What I thought was sick was your attempt to make a snide, sarcastic quip out of the very recent deaths of 4 Canadian troops and I don't know how many children.
That's what is sick.
Edit: In case you missed it, the troops were actually handing out candy at the time.
That's what is sick.
Edit: In case you missed it, the troops were actually handing out candy at the time.
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niss
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Good call BB,
Cat I usually agree with what you say, and have benefitted from your experience and teachings, but that comment I believe was pouring salt on an open wound. I think that the lives of soldeirs should not be used to prove political points.
Cat I usually agree with what you say, and have benefitted from your experience and teachings, but that comment I believe was pouring salt on an open wound. I think that the lives of soldeirs should not be used to prove political points.
She’s built like a Steakhouse, but she handles like a Bistro.
Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
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Springbok 3
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Harper has at last admitted that Canada is at war in Afghanistan and this sentiment should eventually reach the CF leaders in the field. Putting Canadian soldiers at risk to dish out candy as part of their "hearts and minds" exercise is criminal at best. Remember the issue last month when Canadians fired on a motocycle and killed a so-called innocent and a lot of you went apeshit with the rest of the liberal media? Now our lads have been taken out by ragheads on a bicycle doing something they are not supposed to be doing..
I think that was more what Cat was referring to. That and the fact that you can and never will enforce change on those who do not deire it and are not capable of changing their fate for what we perceive as a better way of life.
And Scuba Steve, I say yes, let the Africans sort the shit themselves and we can observe from a distance and thank God that we live in a country like Canada. Let them go on their own guilt trips.
How many African shitholes have you visited or lived in? Be careful of being taken in or guilted by the fucked up Canadian left wing media, bleeding heart adoption ads, aid organisations and politicians.
Just look at that poor Catholic nun that was slaughtered like a rabid dog just because she happened to be Italian and her Pope spoke his mind on a sensitive issue. I bet you she gave her heart and soul in helping those sick bastards and that is how she was repayed. Down at heart, the vast majority of Africans remain savages. Human life is cheap and of not much consequence to them.
Go check out http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org
Do yourself a favour and click on the photographs. Prepare yourself as they are extremely graffic.
I think that was more what Cat was referring to. That and the fact that you can and never will enforce change on those who do not deire it and are not capable of changing their fate for what we perceive as a better way of life.
And Scuba Steve, I say yes, let the Africans sort the shit themselves and we can observe from a distance and thank God that we live in a country like Canada. Let them go on their own guilt trips.
How many African shitholes have you visited or lived in? Be careful of being taken in or guilted by the fucked up Canadian left wing media, bleeding heart adoption ads, aid organisations and politicians.
Just look at that poor Catholic nun that was slaughtered like a rabid dog just because she happened to be Italian and her Pope spoke his mind on a sensitive issue. I bet you she gave her heart and soul in helping those sick bastards and that is how she was repayed. Down at heart, the vast majority of Africans remain savages. Human life is cheap and of not much consequence to them.
Go check out http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org
Do yourself a favour and click on the photographs. Prepare yourself as they are extremely graffic.
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
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Cat Driver
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Bart and Niss :
If my comments reflecting reality
" your government sent your soldiers into a quagmire of religeous zelots who only understand death as a means to an end "
brings you to the assumption that I was being callous with my comment, you are correct, it was meant to be callous.
I have at least seen and worked in about twenty five African countries flying for the TV news media and having been shot at and intercepted by fighter jets I feel I am qualified to comment on reality in these countries that still live in the stone age.
So rather than get all exercised over my comments why don't you write to your government expressing your dissatisfaction at having your soldiers blown up handing out candy?
Cat
If my comments reflecting reality
" your government sent your soldiers into a quagmire of religeous zelots who only understand death as a means to an end "
brings you to the assumption that I was being callous with my comment, you are correct, it was meant to be callous.
I have at least seen and worked in about twenty five African countries flying for the TV news media and having been shot at and intercepted by fighter jets I feel I am qualified to comment on reality in these countries that still live in the stone age.
So rather than get all exercised over my comments why don't you write to your government expressing your dissatisfaction at having your soldiers blown up handing out candy?
Cat
Last edited by Cat Driver on Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Springbok 3
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Maybe this will help put some perspective on the issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFN8WDEe ... ed&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFN8WDEe ... ed&search=
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
I'll happily defer to your experience on African issues, you say let-em-all-kill-eachother-till-every-last-one-is-dead and I say tom-ah-toe. (And can anyone blame the Africans for shooting at you?Cat Driver wrote:I have at least seen and worked in about twenty five African countries flying for the VT news media and having been shot at and intercepted by fighter jets I feel I am qualified to comment on reality in these countries that still live in the stone age.
So rather than get all exercised over my comments why don't you write to your government expressing your dissatisfaction at having your soldiers blown up handing out candy?
)I'm interested to know how this translates into expertise in Afghanistan, or is every third-world country the same to you? I've never been to Afghanistan, but even if I had I'm not sure how that would justify comments like yours above.
I think the mission in Afghaniston is a terrible waste for all parties involved, and our reasons for being there are highly suspect. No matter how I may feel though, using the deaths of our troops as a way of making a point in such a fashion simply cannot be justified.
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Cat Driver
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In Rio De Janeiro If you get mugged, you may be injured.
In Johannesberg if you get mugged you will probably be killed.
Which culture is most brutal?
In Johannesberg if you get mugged you will probably be killed.
Which culture is most brutal?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
" I'm interested to know how this translates into expertise in Afghanistan, or is every third-world country the same to you? "
I have never been to Afghanistan, however I have read their history.
I have lived and worked in islamic countries and adding my reading to my personal experiences with radical religeous zelots I feel that I have a better understanding of the situation that had I only read about it.
And just what the fu.k do you mean by "or is every third world country the same to you? "
Well let me think for a moment......
.....no they are all different, your Indian reserves in Canada are more of an embarrasement to humanity than other third world countries, because you have less excuse for toletating a regime that supports it.
Cat
I have never been to Afghanistan, however I have read their history.
I have lived and worked in islamic countries and adding my reading to my personal experiences with radical religeous zelots I feel that I have a better understanding of the situation that had I only read about it.
And just what the fu.k do you mean by "or is every third world country the same to you? "
Well let me think for a moment......
.....no they are all different, your Indian reserves in Canada are more of an embarrasement to humanity than other third world countries, because you have less excuse for toletating a regime that supports it.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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scubasteve
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Cat - I agree that not all countries should be exactly like Canada. We are wasteful with our resources and not as great a role model as we could be. What I do believe is that all people should have the freedoms to decide their countries fate as we have. I also agree that our native reserves are an issue on its own. I just can't say that I will talk about and approve of people dying needlessly. The UN is not perfect, not a fault of the people on the ground but more of a reflection of the politicians who make the decisions. Should Canadians or others be in these countries? I'm not entirely sure but on principle I think they deserve better.
I initially thought that 911 would bring the world closer by seeing that all people are vulnerable. However the response by the Americans since then has made the divisions even deeper. There is no simple answer but I think walking away and ignoring what is happening is not an answer either. Taking no interest in places like Afghanistan does allow for the training of terrorists without hindrance. If we pull our troops and NGO's etc out of all countries around the world we will see evil run rampant and be at risk for further attacks on our own soil.
I initially thought that 911 would bring the world closer by seeing that all people are vulnerable. However the response by the Americans since then has made the divisions even deeper. There is no simple answer but I think walking away and ignoring what is happening is not an answer either. Taking no interest in places like Afghanistan does allow for the training of terrorists without hindrance. If we pull our troops and NGO's etc out of all countries around the world we will see evil run rampant and be at risk for further attacks on our own soil.
