WestJet Pilots and Deicingi

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:47 pm

Question, why can any of you tell me do some pilots in this industry, not naming airlines feel that they know better when it comes to wing contamination.

In regards to a specific aircraft, yes you can have frost in a certain "Area" marked by black lines, but if there is ANY outside of this it must be de-iced according to the conditions, it doesn't matter if:

1.)You think it will melt

2.) It's only a small spot of it

3.)I've flown with worse

It amazes me I have seen professional pilots actually have to be told they need to de-ice by people with far less expertise than they are supposed to have.

TC says, any contamination outside of the "area" must be removed prior to take-off, it is not a pilots regardless of hours decision to make as to how much is too much contamination. Any is too much... can anyone shed some light on this?

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:49 pm

That being said, there are also a few "sunshine" pilots that exist, but most of those went by the JetsGo wayside...asking for Type IV when there is no precip falling but ``there are clouds on our departure``

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:59 pm

So your argument is that a pilot is not smart enough to deice when he has to but also dumb to deice when he doesn't?

Just let us know when it is alright by you and we will cooperate!

Liftdumper · Post by **Liftdumper** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:05 pm

The shit winds are blowing through the shit tree eh Rand Rand Bobandy

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:07 pm

You can play ignorance all you want, I don't make a red penny when an airline de-ices, but it irritates me when you have frost covering 25-30% of the upper surface of the wing, it's -5C outside and the pilot says he doesn't need to de-ice.

Situations like that don't happen all the time but they do happen often enough to make me wonder about certain pilots lack of respect for their own safety.

This is not a blanket pilot or airline statement, rather individual pilot comments and safety concerns. Frankly if you work for the airline you should be concerned about it, rather than mocking it.

If you don't understand de-icing, it's causes and effects as well as when you can, should and should not de-ice including what to de-ice with and where, and at what temperatures, you should ask for recurrent training.

grammar boy · Post by **grammar boy** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:26 pm

You should add: "Professional Wanker" to your signature

195psi · Post by **195psi** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:41 pm

Question, why can any of you tell me do some pilots in this industry, not naming airlines feel that they know better when it comes to wing contamination. [/b

The title of your thread makes your above statement pointless and unnneeded.
That being said we should probably all fall into line with your inflamtory, the sky is falling type of thinking.
What would the manufacturer, Transport Canada know about any of this. They should listen to you instead of making up these insane schemes.
You lack the training on these aircraft as well as all the background info that went into approving such procedures.
Westjet is by far the safest airline when it comes to de-icing. They btrain more staff and have more info than anywhere else.
Just because people are well informed and have been trained on what is acceptable and what is not does not mean they are unsafe or take risks.
It means they know there shit and you don't. If it wasn't safe it wouldn't fly.
All CEO's know the most expensive and detrimental thing to an ailine is a crash or serious accident. It could close and airline and cost 10 years worth of de-icing fluid. Don't you think this is a thought when looking at de-icing.
Your commnets are way off base and unfounded.

short bus · Post by **short bus** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:38 pm

If you weren't naming an airline, you would have posted this in the General Airline Comments forum, not the Westjet forum.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:54 am

195psi wrote:Question, why can any of you tell me do some pilots in this industry, not naming airlines feel that they know better when it comes to wing contamination. [/b

What would the manufacturer, Transport Canada know about any of this.
They should listen to you instead of making up these insane schemes.
You lack the training on these aircraft as well as all the background info that went into approving such procedures.
Westjet is by far the safest airline when it comes to de-icing. They btrain more staff and have more info than anywhere else.
Just because people are well informed and have been trained on what is acceptable and what is not does not mean they are unsafe or take risks.
It means they know there shit and you don't. If it wasn't safe it wouldn't fly.
All CEO's know the most expensive and detrimental thing to an ailine is a crash or serious accident. It could close and airline and cost 10 years worth of de-icing fluid. Don't you think this is a thought when looking at de-icing.
Your commnets are way off base and unfounded.

Hey listen big guy, I'm not knocking 95% of pilots out there who follow the rules by the book. I'm knocking the few 5% who do not follow as you said Transport Canada Regulations or Company policy. While I'm not going to get into exactly how or where I was trained I can assure you I'm trained to the standard on where contamination can be accepted and where it cannot and to what degree (thickness) it can be accepted.

Fact is, if there is frost on non-approved portions of the wing, the wing is contaminated.

There really isn't any bargaining about it, scary you seem to imply otherwise.

From Transport Canada

1. The additional weight of the ice or snow adds to the total weight of the aircraft, increasing the lift required for the aircraft to take off.
2. The formation of frost, ice or snow also changes the airflow over the wing, reducing the overall lift a wing can produce.

This combination of reduced lift and increased weight can have crucial safety consequences even with small amounts of ice or snow.

During flight operations under icy conditions, any frost, snow or ice on a critical surface of an aircraft must be removed prior to departure.

I have said nothing about the WestJet de-icing training, I agree it is fantastic and second to none.

Again I'm speaking of the few pilots out there who have the training who ignore the rules.

If there is frost outside of the cold soak area clearly indicated on the upper wing surface it MUST be removed, there is no choice for pilots to say weather it should or not, those are the rules, I'm simply inquiring why some pilots choose to waive them?

The Boeing/TC approved cold soak area is delineated by large thick black lines, and I have seen pilots de-ice when there is frost just inches outside of that line, these pilots I applaud because they're following the rules.

SMP · Post by **SMP** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:28 am

WOW!!!

It is still summer, and the Westjet pilots are cowboys when it comes to deicing thread is already started. This must be a record.

Now where is that Westjet pilots ignore red alerts thread....

pei,

If you have a legitimate safety concern, I am sure Westjet would love to hear about it, directly, not on an online forum. Bring details, names and flight #'s, dates and times, and you will have your concerns about the few who don't follow the rules listened to.

SMP

CCR · Post by **CCR** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:11 pm

I concur with SMP. Please report these alleged infractions through the appropriate channels. As well, even though you work for another company, you are still a part of the Westjet team. Your experienced input is valid and you should never hesitate to come up and report to the crew what you see. You may just be providing them with some information they did not have.

flystraightin · Post by **flystraightin** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:54 pm

av8rpei, do you perform a tactile inspection on every aircraft at your gate? I doubt it..

and why are you complaining to us? Tell your station manager or write a letter to the CP of the airline in question.

this was a stupid thread, thanks for wasting 2min of my life I cant get back

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:48 pm

flystraightin wrote:av8rpei, do you perform a tactile inspection on every aircraft at your gate? I doubt it..

and why are you complaining to us? Tell your station manager or write a letter to the CP of the airline in question.

this was a stupid thread, thanks for wasting 2min of my life I cant get back

I do a tactile inspection on EVERY morning departure, and any time there is active precip falling, frost is easily visable from the back of the aircraft, and leading edge rime ice we do a tactile for on the inboard of the engine side on every flight during the winter, or below 0C

Don't tell me you doubt it, but if you do tell me, it shows you obviously don't do it yourself!

If it wasted your life why did you reply? Thanks,

WJ700 · Post by **WJ700** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:47 pm

av8rpei,

Posting on this forum gives the 'impression' of trying to defame the airline.

What would have more credit is you're reporting the details to either your supervisor, WestJet saftey, or TC. They all have avenues to do this, and its your duty as part of the team involved in dispatching the aircraft to protect everyone involved from this type of thing happening. You don't have to give a name.

Had you called WestJet dipatch, they wouldn't have let that aircraft go without a spray no matter who was right.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:58 pm

Ill take that into my winter season 700.

If I wanted to defame the airline I wouldn't post here, the Globe and Mail loves this kind of crap, I think WestJet is a great airline, this posting should serve only to make other WestJet staff aware of this small deficency in the chain of safety.

195psi · Post by **195psi** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:56 pm

You are ridiculous. I really hope you don't work for WJ. This was not constructive in any way except that we now know not to take you seriously.

flystraightin · Post by **flystraightin** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:53 pm

av8rpei wrote:I do a tactile inspection on EVERY morning departure, and any time there is active precip falling, frost is easily visable from the back of the aircraft, and leading edge rime ice we do a tactile for on the inboard of the engine side on every flight during the winter, or below 0C

Don't tell me you doubt it, but if you do tell me, it shows you obviously don't do it yourself!

You're right, apart from morning headstart spraying for frost, I doubt we spray even twice a year. It doesnt get below 0 here, that would be ridiculous..

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:46 am

195psi wrote:You are ridiculous. I really hope you don't work for WJ. This was not constructive in any way except that we now know not to take you seriously.

Hey if you are too inept to take criticism which promotes safety well truly I feel sorry for you, I can tell you one thing the people who know most about de-icing are the De-icing crews, they deice ten times the aircraft than any pilot will fly, these are the guys who know when and where ice and frost form on aircraft in its most intimate form.

Speak to some really experienced pilots about these issues, it sounds like you need to.

And flystraightin, in my part of the country we start spraying in October and it doesn't stop until April.

ivanhoe · Post by **ivanhoe** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:12 am

av8rpei

I wonder how your boss would feel about you coming on an internet forum and slagging a company that pays his bills (and your salary)?

You have approached this in a most unproffesional manner. Grow up and use the proper channels to address any concerns you have.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:24 am

How about instead of having a big investigation the few and very few pilots who I have witnessed doing this will get the hint from you their co-workers to smarten up.

I don't feel the need to start a goddamn brew-haha about this if I truly felt the plane was going to come crashing down I would make sure it wouldn't leave the ground in some way or another don't worry.

It serves my company no good either to have pilots hating to come to my airport because of a few bad apples who can't follow the rules, take the criticism, and use it to make WestJet a safer airline rather than trying to hold the airline up as being a perfect entity, WestJet is still a baby airline although an amazing one for its youth, but it still has some minor teething problems to work through.

If I really had a hate on for WestJet, I'd go to Transport Canada, and I would if I felt these infractions were airline wide, or a major safety concern. The only way I would complain to WestJet is if a pilot was commiting a blatent act of negligence, ignorance and negligence are two different things however.

po'dcjer · Post by **po'dcjer** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:43 am

[quote="av8rpei"]

I don't feel the need to start a goddamn brew-haha about this if I truly felt the plane was going to come crashing down I would make sure it wouldn't leave the ground in some way or another don't worry.

you're the one who started it, pei your a shit disturber, i don't even see your point. You just want raise hell, like you always have, and frankly we're bored of it.

Duster · Post by **Duster** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:28 am

Great - One guy screws the pooch badly in Dryden 20 some years ago and 100,000 collective years of flight experience and airmanship are replaced by "aviation safety advocates" with f**k all for real experience armed with a couple of safety handouts telling us how to operate. Haven't seen Canadian commercial transprts exactly falling out of the sky due to ice either before or after Dryden

2low · Post by **2low** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:45 am

Tea bag in the ocean there av8rpeei.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:46 am

Alright Duster, lets go by your safety method, which by the way is similar to governments.

It happened a long time ago, so it won't happen again.

I can assure you I have as much training on de-icing than anyone else on this board does.

It doesn't matter anyway, any layman can read the transport canada rules regarding de-icing.

Any Contamination on the wing must be removed prior to flight

Are you going to argue with this? If you do, hand over your license to TC now to save some lives.

chancellor · Post by **chancellor** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:11 pm

av8rpei,

Are you the friggin de-icing police. I think it is time to mind your own business and let the professionals do there job.