quotation of the day

Vortex_driver · Post by **Vortex_driver** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:47 pm

Here's how to start a good day...

I enter de dispatch this morning and my beaver is covered with a little bit of clear ice and frost. So I tell my boss I'm gonna have to de-ice and wait.
After a little reflexion the boss tells me : There's not that much on your wings... and you don't have a big load, it's gonna be fine...

he was serious.

Wow... this really happen to me today

What a nice way to start your day!

fly safe

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:56 pm

so what did you say &/or do? us young guys want to know this stuff. when the boss pressures you bush pilots...how do you react?

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:29 pm

Maybe next time you should take a look at the conditions the night before and show up at work early enough to have your machine ready.
Other than that he was likely right. Whether or not it was wise or legal is a different story.
I've been guilty a couple times over the years of "flying it off"

matt foley · Post by **matt foley** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:37 am

So you take two minutes to toss a few buckets of water over the old girl and kick the rudders down. There seems to be a lack of get-er-done-ness around.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:24 am

" So you take two minutes to toss a few buckets of water over the old girl and kick the rudders down. "

Hhhmmmm, that would depend on the OAT.

floatman · Post by **floatman** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:35 pm

So Phillyfan, are you suggesting there's nothing wrong with taking off with a layer of frost and ice on your wings? Just let er' rip and hope it blows off at a convenient time? That demonstrates either a great amount of knowledge and skill or a great amount of disregard for the safety of your passengers and for the lessons learned the hard way by your predecessors.

Don't know about anybody else, but I'm not going to be taking that chance anytime soon. It's a bucket of water for me... the boss can wait to see if that freezes again ... and wait...or he can do it himself.

Maybe I'm just yellow

I'd be interested in hearing what the old-timers have to say about this. (sorry for calling you old-timers "old-timers", but you know who you are

)

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:09 pm

I am a real coward when it comes to wing contamination.

Many times I have used a credit card to scrape frost off the wings in the morning rather than risk smashing the thing up because it wouldn't fly.

Water is O.K. as long as you have it avaliable and you are sure it will not freeze making things worse.

Cat ..the chicken

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:30 pm

Cat Driver wrote: Many times I have used a credit card to scrape frost off the wings in the morning rather than risk smashing the thing up because it wouldn't fly.

Sheesh, when dispatch told you to use the company card to de-ice the plane, you took em so literally.

Just shows how hard it is to teach some of you old timers a new trick. You are supposed to just hand the credit card to the gals at the desk, and let them know you want type 1 used on the plane, then go grab a coffee while the line rats look after the plane.

I'm beginning to understand the rules for mandatory retirement.....

matt foley · Post by **matt foley** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:38 pm

If youre still on the water and not north of 70, then one can assume the water temp is at least a few dgrees above zero and in a liquid state. Ive been caught by weather and spent the night on a half open lake in October. The Otter froze over that night but with a bucket, the float pump and some hose(think man powered fire hydrant) she was flyable within half an hour or so. Dont sweat the small stuff...ps, its all small stuff.

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:10 am

matt foley wrote:

So you take two minutes to toss a few buckets of water over the old girl and kick the rudders down. There seems to be a lack of get-er-done-ness around.

That is exactly what I was thinking. What the hell is the big deal, throw a few pails of water on it before loading it and there would be nothing to say to the boss and no need for this thread.

Is this what bush flying has come to?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:16 am

Mornin goldeneagle:

just to make sure new float plane pilots reading this do not missunderstand my comment on using a credit card to remove frost on the wings is it O.K. if I explain why?

I used to fly a TU206 Amphib. Cessna for Coulson Aircrane quite often I would leave it parked overnight at Qualicum Beach at the airport.

At certain times of the year the wings will be covered in thick hoar frost.

So with nothing else to use for cleaning the wings I used a small piece of carpet to kneel on and a credit card to scrape the hoar frost with. Sure it took some time but I arrived at the airplane with time to properly prepare the airplane.

It is not difficult to suspect when you will have frost on the wings....if the forcast was for wet snow or freezing rain or percipitation of any kind I kept a roll of light weight poly film and a ball of string. I tied the poly on the wings and in the morning all I had to do was cut the string and pull the poly off and stuff it in the garbage..cheap and easy wing protection.

Anyone remember the two airplanes that took off one after the other with contaminated wings in northern Alberta and both crashed?

Back to the credit card goldeneagle, it also is one of two items I carry as survival gear to use for other things besides de icing. I carry a credit card and a pack of condoms.

Cat

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:58 am

The Hotel in Inuvik sells a credit card sized scraper for exactly that. Of course, I suspect that they sell Cat's other survival equipment as well, but...

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:25 pm

Floatman

I said in my post "Whether or not it was wise or legal is a different story" So no I don't think you should show up last minute and "Just let er' rip and hope it blows off at a convenient time"
But I also stand by what I said. The Beaver would have almost certainly had no problem taking off and doing the trip.
If the guy worked for me I would not ask him to fly with the ice but I would tell him that he had to be on the dock 2 hours before the scheduled departure time for the rest of the season.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:35 pm

philly, I have read your stuff for quite some time, but on this one I'm not sure where you are coming from.

If there is ice and frost or either on the wings and the rest of the airplane where would you suggest a pilot look to research at exactly what amount of contamination you must remove it?

Is it airplane specific or generic?

Vortex_driver · Post by **Vortex_driver** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:48 pm

this story happen at 6h30... I already bust my duty time... i'm not gonna start at 4h30..
yes I did trow a few bucket but only at 7h30 cause it was still freezing at 6h30 and I was off at 8h00
I don't think anybody could have done it earlier. It's just a stupid boss that pushes on everything.

floatman · Post by **floatman** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:21 pm

Ok Philly.. not trying to get into a pissing match by any means..

however.. you did come across as almost in aggreance with "the boss" in question.

"whether it was WISE or legal" "would have ALMOST CERTAINLY had no problem taking off"

these are pretty weak arguments when it comes to portraying a SAFETY FIRST attitude.

this industry has had it's share of knocks and if the up-and-comers are going to make stupid mistakes and crumple airplanes because of surface contamination, then we all may be out of jobs down the road due to the fact nobody can afford insurance. IMHO, it's up to the guys with experience to pass down a professional attitude and sense of safety first to the next generation without the cowboy mentality being displayed.

in all honesty.. the fact that you say that you are guilty of this a couple of times over the years and that the boss was likely "right" and that Vortex should have been at work two hours earlier would make me think that maybe you have a bit of a cavalier attitude and should check it... before you wreck it... or worse yet have some young float jock read your post and think it's okay just to "FLY IT OFF"... a really a stupid thing to do.. me thinks.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:58 pm

Over the years it has been deceided that the standard needs to be one of "zero contamination".
With the thousands of different aircraft types and wing designs it is the only sure bet. It would be impossible to be certain how every aircraft would perform based on different amounts of contamination and making such a guide would be a receipe for disaster.
The float industry however is full of advice regarding ice on the wings from old timers. I've heard
-"the 185's and 206's don't do as well"
-Beaver and Otter "just clear the 6inches on the leading edge"
- and "oh the Beaver, "just make sure the tail is clear".
I've even flown for an operation where the procedure for ice on the wings was to takeoff and fly in ground effect, until it was clear.

So the message is, be sure to clean that dusting of frost off the airplanes wings, but have no fear when you tie that 400lb boat to the side of it on a nice hot, humid, summer day.

My advice would be. Show up for work early enough to have your airplane ready and don't hide behind duty times. It's that time of year, either you show up early, or you stay late and put wing covers on.

Floatman: Those who have worked with me would get a good laugh at you saying that I "have a bit of a cavalier attitude and should check it... before you wreck it"
I don't just show up and fly the airplane because I am too lazy to clean it. But if the phone rings with a medical emergency I am not waiting until noon for it to melt or taking the time to scrape the wings with a credit card.
So here it is, a Beaver will fly with frost on the wings and in fact, it will fly with alot of it and it will still fly better than when it has a boat on it.
I know, because i've done it. Now you young guys, don't you all stay out at the bar til close knowing that you can sleep an extra 2hrs because Phillyfan said it was cool to fly with the frost.

Walter · Post by **Walter** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:10 pm

Vortex,

As long as you are working in this environment you are going to encounter this type of thing.

If you are flying a beaver then you should already know the difference between pushing it a bit and stupidity. The important thing to remember is just because your boss owns a beaver doesn’t make him or her a genius and you probably shouldn’t rely on that person to keep you out of trouble. It is good to hear that you didn’t do the flight, a lot of guys would have.

If you don’t like something then don’t do it. That is what keeps us alive, that instinct. No one else should be making that call for you at this point. If this boss is an idiot then tell him he is an idiot and leave or if it’s not that bad stay, it’s up to you. Just be safe and don’t let a couple of bad experiences stop you from enjoying your float flying. There are plenty of positives for all the negatives and lots of good professional companies to work for. Most importantly, despite the widespread belief, you don’t have to do anything unsafe to make it in aviation. You won’t be “black balled” if you refuse, you will probably end up working for the company next door because they will know you’re a good safe pilot.

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:23 pm

Oh Philly, there is no room for judgement in bush flying! If we did that the gene pool would be getting healthier by the minute...

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:31 pm

This is turning into one of the most interesting threads we have seen here in a long time.

I am going to sit in the weeds and see where this ends up.

One thing for sure, either I'm getting senile or I need some re-education regarding airmanship. ( Human Factors / Pilot decision making and all that stuff. )

I wonder if those comments that I leave under all my posts is just me being naive?

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:44 pm

What's wrong with you guys? Are you trying to make the Darwin list? If you have no common sense left, or you think the laws of aerodynamics don't apply to bush planes or just beavers or whatever, READ YOUR AIP!

"(c) The Clean Aircraft Concept: CARs prohibit takeoff when frost, ice or snow is adhering to any critical surface of the aircraft. This is referred to as “The Clean Aircraft Concept”.

It is imperative that takeoff not be attempted in any aircraft unless the pilot-in-command has determined that all critical components of the aircraft are free of frost, ice or snow contamination. This requirement may be met if the pilot-in-command obtains verification from properly trained and qualified personnel that the aircraft is ready for flight."

Do I have to look up the CARS reference for you? There is no debate on this. There is so much research on airframe contamination, you should have no doubt - fly iced/frosted/whatever and die.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:25 pm

I've flown with ice,frost or whatever and i'm not dead. So then science must be wrong or I am an even better pilot then I thought. Vortex's boss told him.
"There's not that much on your wings... and you don't have a big load, it's gonna be fine..." and despite what the CAR's tell us. I'm telling you if it was as described "my beaver is covered with a little bit of clear ice and frost" Then his boss was correct.
It also states in the CAR's that you can't fly more than 25 miles from the point of departure without a logbook, but hey guess what? You actually can!!
I'm here to tell you that. Yes a Beaver will fly with a certain amount of ice on the wings, how much I can't say. But Vortex's boss was very likely correct in saying "There's not that much on your wings... and you don't have a big load, it's gonna be fine..."
Nobody here is saying Beaver pilot's should go out and fly with 2 inches of freezing rain on there wings. I am however telling you I have flown a Beaver with a large amount of frost on the wings and despite the laws of science and transport I am alive today.

scubasteve · Post by **scubasteve** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:57 pm

I find it amusing that some of the same people who cry foul about the pilots who whore themselves and put up working for companies who push them to do unsafe things are saying in this thread that its ok to take off with frost or ice on the wings. To be fair there probably are situation and aircraft where it would be ok but only with experience. Those comments should come with a disclaimer to the younger less experienced pilots.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:19 pm

I've done some stupid things in my past, too. Guess what? I'm still alive!

Phillyfan, congratulations. I thought I was God's Gift to aviation, but you obviously take the cake.

So when is it ok to fly with contamination on the wings? After 500 hrs? 1000? 10,000? How much experience makes it ok? How thick can the ice be? Does it vary with the "experience?"

Go ahead, load 'er up with ice and try it! All those people who've studied airframe icing are full of shit anyway, aren't they? None of them could have had any time in the mighty Beaver.

If any of you nimrods think its all right to fly with ANY contamination on your wings, I heartily encourage you to just go ahead and do it! Go on, give it a try! There's too many people who think they are pilots around anyway and a good epidemic of darwinism will thin the ranks nicely: you will either thunder in; someone will pull your license; you will lose in court after your accident and your insurance company will refuse to pay because you knowingly broke CARS; if you do survive, you will be famous, you'll always be 'bush' but everyone will know who you are.

This thread really does beat all. It must be a troll - am I the only one that doesn't get it?

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:32 am

I'd be lieing to you if i said I never flew with contaminated wings. The way I view it now is simple - It is illegal, people have been killed flying iced up machines, and really I'm not a test pilot.
show up at your plane early and pull out the broom.