Pie Lot
Your quote:
“Some of the crap I'm reading here from you Big Red guys is unbelievable. All this talk about WJ execs facing criminal charges, possible jail, and turning over all profits to AC is nuts. It's not going to happen; period. Not with our court system, and not with AC's history and performance on WJ's side.”
Hmm that’s quite a mouthful, however the matter is now before the courts and it doesn’t really matter what your opinion is on this matter WJ broke the law by hacking into the AC secure web site which they have admitted doing. The history of AC or WJ prior to this event is irrelevant. The courts will determine what financial damage AC suffered as the result of this unlawful act and assess a fine.
Some newspaper financial pundits have estimated the damages could go as high as $400 million with the possibility of criminal charges been laid. If this case was been tried down south I would agree with them however in Canada I’m of the opinion that the settlement will probably be a hundred or so million. Depending upon what the forensic expert discovers and what the WJ executives have testified too there also exists the possibility that someone could spend time in the cooler.
I’m sure all the corporate CEO’s down south that have been recently convicted all thought that they were above the law as do the WJ executives. The courts and common sense thought otherwise.
The rest of your argument is also completely irrelevant to the case but you are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine..
Air Canada goes after Westjet CEO
Moderators: Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, I WAS Birddog
How did they hack? I thought hacking was breaking in when it supposedly shouldn't be able to be done. Didn't someone just use their personal code to enter like all other AC employees?Rebel wrote:... WJ broke the law by hacking into the AC secure web site which they have admitted doing. The history of AC or WJ prior to this event is irrelevant. The courts will determine what financial damage AC suffered as the result of this unlawful act and assess a fine.
What are the damages? As Pie Lot pointed out... WJ offered a service and the customer still had a choice whether to fly with them or not. The same type of information could have been attained by placing people at airports and seeing when A/C's busiest flights with the largest loads were. Or by having peope use the reservation system to determine the same information by inquiring about flights. AC could do the same thing with WJ's service just as easily.
You guys make it sound like WJ stole money from AC's pockets... only AC employees can do that.
Just admit it... you pro AC guys are just baggage chuckers looking for excuses as to how you can keep your 60K a year salary.
Umm... "trolls" start threads to get reactions. I didn't start the thread and the reaction has only been from pro AC people with what seems to be a real disgust for WJ.Rebel wrote:Schlem
After reading all your posts on many subjects I have come to the conclusion that you are a “troll”.
Maybe you and Blastor are the trolls for posting all these bloody media stories about WJ in several areas on this board... looking for a reaction so you can continue to push your anti-WJ ramblings.
Pie Lot & Schlem:
I hope you guys are good pilots because you both know absolutely nothing about the business world. If WJ wanted to know passenger loads the legal way to do this would be to park someone at the AC gates and count pax. They chose the illegal way and accessed private and confidential information which is ILLEGAL. This now subjects them to be sued for punitive damages if shown the information gathered could be used to benefit the strategic planning of the schedualled flight times. Furthermore, every time WJ accessed the AC website counts as an offence. This means the courts can award damages for each and every time the site was accessed illegally. Thats going to prove to be very costly. Already financial institutions are re-evaluating thier rating of WJ based partly on this issue. You guys better read up all little on corp. law because with every post you show your total lack of knowledge.
I hope you guys are good pilots because you both know absolutely nothing about the business world. If WJ wanted to know passenger loads the legal way to do this would be to park someone at the AC gates and count pax. They chose the illegal way and accessed private and confidential information which is ILLEGAL. This now subjects them to be sued for punitive damages if shown the information gathered could be used to benefit the strategic planning of the schedualled flight times. Furthermore, every time WJ accessed the AC website counts as an offence. This means the courts can award damages for each and every time the site was accessed illegally. Thats going to prove to be very costly. Already financial institutions are re-evaluating thier rating of WJ based partly on this issue. You guys better read up all little on corp. law because with every post you show your total lack of knowledge.
Schlem,
If it was so easy for WJ to legally obtain the information they wanted about AC's passenger loads, why did they choose to do it illegally? You are painting them to be even stupider than they are already demonstrated to be. Um, lets see now...........I can do this legally, or I can do it illegally thereby putting everything I've worked to build at risk, ..... I choose to steal what I want!
Pie Lot,
You miss a critical point when you say WJ just offered a service and the public could choose between the two. They weren't offering the service at the same times as AC, and their times had been less popular than those of their competitor. Ultimately, a significant element of their "total service," their flight times in particular, were improved based on theft of data.
Try as you might, you can not justify theft by WJ or any other company or person. It's morally wrong and legally wrong. People and companies have a right to expect their property will not be stolen by competitors or other thieves.
I don't like crooks and I hope the responsible WJ executives are soundly thrashed in AC's civil suit, that the Crown also pursues criminal charges, and that the OSC takes a close look at Bedoe's suitability to be running a public company. Those guys misconduct may well cost tens of thousands of shareholders (individual people, pension funds, investment companies) a lot of money.
If it was so easy for WJ to legally obtain the information they wanted about AC's passenger loads, why did they choose to do it illegally? You are painting them to be even stupider than they are already demonstrated to be. Um, lets see now...........I can do this legally, or I can do it illegally thereby putting everything I've worked to build at risk, ..... I choose to steal what I want!
Pie Lot,
You miss a critical point when you say WJ just offered a service and the public could choose between the two. They weren't offering the service at the same times as AC, and their times had been less popular than those of their competitor. Ultimately, a significant element of their "total service," their flight times in particular, were improved based on theft of data.
Try as you might, you can not justify theft by WJ or any other company or person. It's morally wrong and legally wrong. People and companies have a right to expect their property will not be stolen by competitors or other thieves.
I don't like crooks and I hope the responsible WJ executives are soundly thrashed in AC's civil suit, that the Crown also pursues criminal charges, and that the OSC takes a close look at Bedoe's suitability to be running a public company. Those guys misconduct may well cost tens of thousands of shareholders (individual people, pension funds, investment companies) a lot of money.
I just said the same thing about counting pax above...727driver wrote:Pie Lot & Schlem:
..If WJ wanted to know passenger loads the legal way to do this would be to park someone at the AC gates and count pax.
Already financial institutions are re-evaluating thier rating of WJ based partly on this issue. You guys better read up all little on corp. law because with every post you show your total lack of knowledge.
All these financial analysts and experts want is their name in the papers across the country and their predictions are just that. They speculate as much as we do only they have the education and experience to validate themsleves.
All I have been saysing from day one is wait until it's all proven in court and the damages are handed out. Then bash WJ as much as you like but bashing them now is really senseless but so many anti-WJ people can't seem to be able to hold themselves back and use every newspaper article they find to fuel the fire here.
As for corporate law... I am clueless and don't really care... I'll wait and let the courts decide as should everyone else.
They chose the illegal way and accessed private and confidential information which is ILLEGAL.
I ask again: If what Westjet did was illegal - criminal - why are there no criminal charges being laid? My understanding from an article a while back was that the RCMP saw what Westjet did as being legal.
Is what Westjet did illegal or unethical? I think the answer is pretty simple.
I ask again: If what Westjet did was illegal - criminal - why are there no criminal charges being laid? My understanding from an article a while back was that the RCMP saw what Westjet did as being legal.
Is what Westjet did illegal or unethical? I think the answer is pretty simple.
Again.. more speculation... you think they will lose and that the company is at risk... is it really? Wait and see. Is it not possible that WJ knew exactly what the potential consequences were going to be before they decided to get the information? I would bet yes and if it was such a huge risk to the company do you think they would have still gone through with it? I say no.Wilbur wrote:Schlem,
If it was so easy for WJ to legally obtain the information they wanted about AC's passenger loads, why did they choose to do it illegally? You are painting them to be even stupider than they are already demonstrated to be. Um, lets see now...........I can do this legally, or I can do it illegally thereby putting everything I've worked to build at risk, ..... I choose to steal what I want!
But that's just me.
AC is simply trying to get the most negative publicity it can pointed at WJ before they come out from under the umbrella this fall... for all we know the final result in all this could be completely laughable.
727 Driver:
Nice try....I can't speak for Schlem....although in my opinion he seems rather intelligent. But in my case, I have a business background, with a major in accounting and a minor in law. I didn't study corporate law extensively, but have had enough dealings in it in my business background in my pre-pilot life, to know what I am talking about.
What they did might have been unethical, but in reality; no one is going to spend any time in the cooler. WJ accessed AC's website through a username and password legally given to a Westjet Employee. As far as a "secure" website, if it was that secure and confidential, how did WJ access it 240,000 times without AC finding out? Although as I said WJ's actions might have been unethical, but not illegal. WJ accessed the site through a legally provided password, but we all know the intent when that password was given was not to have custom designed software access it 240,000 times.
Being that it will be established that WJ did not illegally access the site, no one will be charged or spend any time in jail. Corporate and civil law is another matter, and that is why the lawsuit is allowed to be filed. Two totally different rules of law.
WJ might be found guilty of unethical conduct in civil court (Superior Court in Ontario where the suit was filed). The courts may assess actual and punitive damages against WJ if it is determined that their actions directly harmed AC in a way determined to be illegal. This is the matter for the courts to decide, then if guilty how much to assess.
Because the consumer still had a choice as to what airline to use the actual damages might not be that much in reality. Remember, WJ did not use the website to contact booked AC customers and offer them lower fares, it just offered flights at peak times and gave the consumer the ultimate end decision as to which carrier to use.
WJ can not be held responsible for using the website to undercut AC's prices to damage them. Remember; AC does this on a daily bases to WJ, this is just a normal course of business. Every day AC accesses WJ's website to gain fare info and adjust their prices accordingly. This explaind a dollar or two difference on many of the same flights offered by both companies. Every time WJ moves into a market previously served by AC; then AC drastically cuts its fares to compete, using predatory practices (this is a term AC is familiar with, as they have been the defendant in court many times on this charge) to try and drive WJ out of the market. Sudbury is a good example.
Again, there will be no criminal charges that stick, WJ will be found guilty of some unethical practices and in the end will pay a few million as a slap on the wrist punishment.
As far as stock prices dropping, WJ will recover without a problem when this blows over. Emotions and politics play as much if not a bigger part in stock prices than do financial results. In the end though, WJ has a money making formula, goodwill, and an excellent product that will prevail. Remember no matter what happens with the current AC situation, they will emerge with a bitter, workforce that has suffered humiliation in the press and public. They will be doing more work for less pay and still have the same management. No matter what happens, AC will not be able to compete with WJ's proven success formula and motivated workforce. This is what will determine future profits and ultimately share price. The current drop will just be a blip on a 20 year timeline history graph of the share price.
Nice try....I can't speak for Schlem....although in my opinion he seems rather intelligent. But in my case, I have a business background, with a major in accounting and a minor in law. I didn't study corporate law extensively, but have had enough dealings in it in my business background in my pre-pilot life, to know what I am talking about.
What they did might have been unethical, but in reality; no one is going to spend any time in the cooler. WJ accessed AC's website through a username and password legally given to a Westjet Employee. As far as a "secure" website, if it was that secure and confidential, how did WJ access it 240,000 times without AC finding out? Although as I said WJ's actions might have been unethical, but not illegal. WJ accessed the site through a legally provided password, but we all know the intent when that password was given was not to have custom designed software access it 240,000 times.
Being that it will be established that WJ did not illegally access the site, no one will be charged or spend any time in jail. Corporate and civil law is another matter, and that is why the lawsuit is allowed to be filed. Two totally different rules of law.
WJ might be found guilty of unethical conduct in civil court (Superior Court in Ontario where the suit was filed). The courts may assess actual and punitive damages against WJ if it is determined that their actions directly harmed AC in a way determined to be illegal. This is the matter for the courts to decide, then if guilty how much to assess.
Because the consumer still had a choice as to what airline to use the actual damages might not be that much in reality. Remember, WJ did not use the website to contact booked AC customers and offer them lower fares, it just offered flights at peak times and gave the consumer the ultimate end decision as to which carrier to use.
WJ can not be held responsible for using the website to undercut AC's prices to damage them. Remember; AC does this on a daily bases to WJ, this is just a normal course of business. Every day AC accesses WJ's website to gain fare info and adjust their prices accordingly. This explaind a dollar or two difference on many of the same flights offered by both companies. Every time WJ moves into a market previously served by AC; then AC drastically cuts its fares to compete, using predatory practices (this is a term AC is familiar with, as they have been the defendant in court many times on this charge) to try and drive WJ out of the market. Sudbury is a good example.
Again, there will be no criminal charges that stick, WJ will be found guilty of some unethical practices and in the end will pay a few million as a slap on the wrist punishment.
As far as stock prices dropping, WJ will recover without a problem when this blows over. Emotions and politics play as much if not a bigger part in stock prices than do financial results. In the end though, WJ has a money making formula, goodwill, and an excellent product that will prevail. Remember no matter what happens with the current AC situation, they will emerge with a bitter, workforce that has suffered humiliation in the press and public. They will be doing more work for less pay and still have the same management. No matter what happens, AC will not be able to compete with WJ's proven success formula and motivated workforce. This is what will determine future profits and ultimately share price. The current drop will just be a blip on a 20 year timeline history graph of the share price.
Excellent post Pie Lot! That explains a lot in this mess.Pie Lot wrote:727 Driver:
Nice try....I can't speak for Schlem....although in my opinion he seems rather intelligent.
As for my intelligence... my life prior to flying airplanes was on two boards going down mountains in fluffy white snow.
As for my piloting skills which 727 driver brought up... I probably had more international(world wide) jet experience under my belt before I had 3000 hours then most JAZZ/AC pilots do.
What is a Troll?
An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.
Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.
An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.
Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.
Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.
Well I guess your version of a troll... and mine are very different.Rebel wrote:What is a Troll?
An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Where'd you copy that from? I've seen it somewhere else.
Are you and Blastor trolls then since you are happy to be trying to sow discord towards WJ by pasting all kinds of anti-WJ articles...?
You both seem to be causing arguments as well since we seem to have them in this thread.
Must not have done too well on the LSAT with that minor in Law Mr. Pie Lot...regarding the issue of legally accessing the AC Employee Website...Let me enlighten you since you obviously are unaware.
1. There is an electronic signature which explains the terms and conditions of use of the site. This explicitly states that the use of this site is for the personal travel of Air Canada Employees and that the information found on this site is of personal and confidential nature. Once you agree to this then you may access the site. (In addition you must have a valid employee number and pin number to get this far)
2. All exec.s sign a confidentialty agreement as a condition of thier employment. So providing the information to access the site is way off-side.
Therefore Mr. Hill is in deep for providing the key to the barn but Clive and his buddies are guilty for going in the barn and stealing the horse. Is this starting to become a little more clear. Watch Mr. Hill strike a deal with AC to sing like a choir boy to judge so he can walk away clean.
No one said anything about jail time for the WJ boys however they will cost the company many millions in damages to AC.
Furthermore I would think someone with your international experience would understand the difference between the SABRE system and the AC Employee Travel Website. On Sabre you can check flights and prices however it will not provide load factors and thats what WJ was after boys and girls.
1. There is an electronic signature which explains the terms and conditions of use of the site. This explicitly states that the use of this site is for the personal travel of Air Canada Employees and that the information found on this site is of personal and confidential nature. Once you agree to this then you may access the site. (In addition you must have a valid employee number and pin number to get this far)
2. All exec.s sign a confidentialty agreement as a condition of thier employment. So providing the information to access the site is way off-side.
Therefore Mr. Hill is in deep for providing the key to the barn but Clive and his buddies are guilty for going in the barn and stealing the horse. Is this starting to become a little more clear. Watch Mr. Hill strike a deal with AC to sing like a choir boy to judge so he can walk away clean.
No one said anything about jail time for the WJ boys however they will cost the company many millions in damages to AC.
Furthermore I would think someone with your international experience would understand the difference between the SABRE system and the AC Employee Travel Website. On Sabre you can check flights and prices however it will not provide load factors and thats what WJ was after boys and girls.
727 Driver:
I didn't write the LSAT, because I majored in accounting, while taking the required law courses and a few extra due to personal interest.
Yes, there is an electronic signature, and I'm sure Mr. Hill signed a confidentiality agreement. It's like certain training bonds, or a non-competition agreement. In a lot of cases they aren't worth the paper their written on once they get to court.
As far as Mr. Hill cutting a deal, it won't be neccessary as WJ has already admitted they accessed the info.
Yes I know the difference between the SABRE and employee system. WJ just happened to get the loads which Joe public doesn't have access too. Yes, I've said WJ will get their wrists slapped to the tune of a couple of million. No question. But in the end, big deal. AC is simply making a bigger deal out of all this just to give WJ some bad press more than anything else. You know, take off some of the shine that has driven AC nuts for over 8 years.
Any court will determine that 10 months of WJ hacking has nothing to do with AC's financial and numerous other troubles. 10 years from now this whole hacking thing will be a trivial pursuit question, WJ will be the dominant carrier in the Nation, and AC will probably be another question in the game.
And as a side note, can you honestly tell me that Milton and his cronies at AC would not have jumped all over the same WJ info, given the same opportunity. They love predatory pricing practices, and you know they would have loved the chance to stick it to WJ. They are just pissed WJ did it first.
Pie Lot
I didn't write the LSAT, because I majored in accounting, while taking the required law courses and a few extra due to personal interest.
Yes, there is an electronic signature, and I'm sure Mr. Hill signed a confidentiality agreement. It's like certain training bonds, or a non-competition agreement. In a lot of cases they aren't worth the paper their written on once they get to court.
As far as Mr. Hill cutting a deal, it won't be neccessary as WJ has already admitted they accessed the info.
Yes I know the difference between the SABRE and employee system. WJ just happened to get the loads which Joe public doesn't have access too. Yes, I've said WJ will get their wrists slapped to the tune of a couple of million. No question. But in the end, big deal. AC is simply making a bigger deal out of all this just to give WJ some bad press more than anything else. You know, take off some of the shine that has driven AC nuts for over 8 years.
Any court will determine that 10 months of WJ hacking has nothing to do with AC's financial and numerous other troubles. 10 years from now this whole hacking thing will be a trivial pursuit question, WJ will be the dominant carrier in the Nation, and AC will probably be another question in the game.
And as a side note, can you honestly tell me that Milton and his cronies at AC would not have jumped all over the same WJ info, given the same opportunity. They love predatory pricing practices, and you know they would have loved the chance to stick it to WJ. They are just pissed WJ did it first.
Pie Lot
quote="Pie Lot"]727 Driver:
“Yes, there is an electronic signature, and I'm sure Mr. Hill signed a confidentiality agreement. It's like certain training bonds, or a non-competition agreement. In a lot of cases they aren't worth the paper their written on once they get to court.”
If by electronic signature you are referring to "Conditions of Use" then it was not in place when WJ hacked the site. It is in place now.
“As far as Mr. Hill cutting a deal, it won't be necessary, as WJ has already admitted they accessed the info.”
Mr Hill's problems go deeper then WJ admitting guilt it all depends on what he did with the information and what he has told or is going to tell the court. Of course his memory will be refreshed by what the forensic accountant discovers. Think Martha Stewart and the mess she's in by telling a little white lie.
“Any court will determine that 10 months of WJ hacking has nothing to do with AC's financial and numerous other troubles.”
I don't think so as your argument is largely irrelevant. The court is only interested in all financial damages that occurred after the event. I will be surprised if the court widens the scope of interest beyond this event.
As far as AC is concerned I add the following article for your consideration.
Low cost airlines!
Open any major newspaper, listen to any financial report, or read any number of Web sites offering travel advice and you'll be sure to hear about the demise of the major network air-carriers. For years, travel pundits have proclaimed that the economy airlines (Southwest, JetBlue, AirTran Airways, Frontier Airlines, and Independence Air) are the Darwinian equivalent of natural selection.
Well, it is time to call a spade a spade.
Even though the low frills mode of transportation has been glamorized in the media as the future of travel - not unlike the way they described dot-coms as the future economy a few years ago - these companies can't deliver the value proposition.
And value is what travelers are really looking for.
You know, the four Cs: cost, convenience, choice, and comfort. Strict adherence to low-cost is not as relevant as affordability and lifestyle choice.
The basic assumption of the economic carriers' business model is that people will accept any level of service as long as it is cheap. That's where the misunderstanding begins.
Economy carriers do not offer the best way to travel, nor do they offer the
cheapest. Typically, economy carriers over-promise and under-deliver. Maybe that's why 95 percent of all start-up carriers fail. By far, economic carriers provide nothing more than the simplest service -treating people like a commodity.
In fact, some of the services can be down right demeaning. One major European economy carrier recently announced that future aircraft will not have window shades or seat pockets. Instead, your seat back will be plastered with advertising. What's next, coin-operated toilets?
Despite pedestrian service, economy airlines enjoy a mass influx of converts. Is this tectonic exodus well-deserved - or just a matter of spin?
The truth is, it's spin.
The greatest spin happens when economy carriers are called low-fare airlines.
Referring to them as "low-cost" is duplicitous. Consider a recent sampling of fares for a round trip flight from Washington, D.C. (Dulles) to Oakland,
Calif., departing June 8th, returning June 10th. "Low-fare" JetBlue offered a $275 fare, while "high-cost" Delta Air Lines yielded a $219.40 price, which included a chance for an upgrade.
Here's another example. This past week while planning a trip from Los Angeles to Philadelphia, I compared fares on Delta Air Lines and Southwest. Delta offered an upgradeable fare for $304, while Southwest's fare was $408.
And they call Southwest a low-fare airline? Please.
Southwest Airlines and its protégés have chiefly succeeded by cherry-picking routes and city pairs, flying between airports with the lowest landing fees - shifting schedules to match passenger demand, operating one type of aircraft that are cheaper to maintain, and easier to fill. They also have lower distribution cost (selling tickets direct and on the Internet), and a cheap labor force.
All of these variables with the exception of labor cost are easily duplicated.
However, they do not always serve the best interest of travel consumers.
By only serving a limited number of markets, economy carriers are selfishly saying that their customer's needs are not important. They serve limited markets to save money.
But the reality is that travelers' needs extend beyond one or two destinations.
Fact is, air travelers need access to the world.
Moreover, economy carriers typically operate from secondary airports sometimes up to 30 miles away from the city centers. In contrast, full service carriers offer steady global coverage from major airports with seamless connections, and the ease of transferring to partner airlines within their alliances (Star Alliance, One World, SkyTeam).
Oh, and one other thing. One size of aircraft does not fit all. Airlines that
only fly one type of aircraft have a fixed capacity. This makes it difficult
for flight schedulers to deal with cancelled or delayed flights. Since all
flights carry the same number of people which are usually full, passengers
whose flights are canceled due to mechanical reasons, or weather, can't be put on another aircraft - because there is no room.
Having a diverse fleet, allows full-service carriers to increase capacity with
a larger plane when a flight is canceled, providing customers with greater
convenience and comfort.
Air travel is a complex process at best. By focusing their service through the Internet, limiting the number of customer-contact employees available to serve customers, the so-called "low-fare" carriers are seeking self-interest at their customer's expense.
The Internet alone cannot resolve all ticketing issues. With limited customer contact support, passengers of economy carriers often are forced to navigate the Byzantine world of ticketing rules on their own. Full-service air carriers tend to have a higher ratio of full-service employees which might go unnoticed until there is a weather delay or flight cancellation, than these extra people can really help.
Why should travelers choose full-service carriers? There are a myriad of
reasons, including cost, comfort, choice, and convenience. It's the ability to fly anywhere in the world with seamless connections, the choice between luxurious first class, an comfortable business class or an enjoyable economy class, while being politely served.
Competitive fares that are sometimes lower than economy carriers, loyalty programs that are not in danger of going away (despite bankruptcy. United's MileagePlus program remains solid). There are in-flight meals, a choice of drinks, a range of entertainment options including movies, television programs, games and music.
In essence, it's a lifestyle choice.
The big three airlines have been serving customers for 75 years. A formidable feat, considering they have weathered an economic depression, numerous recessions, six wars, political turmoil, and changing consumer preference. Certainly, newbie economic carriers have room to prove themselves.
Until then, I think I'll stick with my first-class flights, boarding priority,
flying up front at a coach price and the preferred security lines.
Joel Widzer is author of "The Penny Pincher's Passport to Luxury Travel," a
guidebook on traveling in high style at budget-friendly prices.
“Yes, there is an electronic signature, and I'm sure Mr. Hill signed a confidentiality agreement. It's like certain training bonds, or a non-competition agreement. In a lot of cases they aren't worth the paper their written on once they get to court.”
If by electronic signature you are referring to "Conditions of Use" then it was not in place when WJ hacked the site. It is in place now.
“As far as Mr. Hill cutting a deal, it won't be necessary, as WJ has already admitted they accessed the info.”
Mr Hill's problems go deeper then WJ admitting guilt it all depends on what he did with the information and what he has told or is going to tell the court. Of course his memory will be refreshed by what the forensic accountant discovers. Think Martha Stewart and the mess she's in by telling a little white lie.
“Any court will determine that 10 months of WJ hacking has nothing to do with AC's financial and numerous other troubles.”
I don't think so as your argument is largely irrelevant. The court is only interested in all financial damages that occurred after the event. I will be surprised if the court widens the scope of interest beyond this event.
As far as AC is concerned I add the following article for your consideration.
Low cost airlines!
Open any major newspaper, listen to any financial report, or read any number of Web sites offering travel advice and you'll be sure to hear about the demise of the major network air-carriers. For years, travel pundits have proclaimed that the economy airlines (Southwest, JetBlue, AirTran Airways, Frontier Airlines, and Independence Air) are the Darwinian equivalent of natural selection.
Well, it is time to call a spade a spade.
Even though the low frills mode of transportation has been glamorized in the media as the future of travel - not unlike the way they described dot-coms as the future economy a few years ago - these companies can't deliver the value proposition.
And value is what travelers are really looking for.
You know, the four Cs: cost, convenience, choice, and comfort. Strict adherence to low-cost is not as relevant as affordability and lifestyle choice.
The basic assumption of the economic carriers' business model is that people will accept any level of service as long as it is cheap. That's where the misunderstanding begins.
Economy carriers do not offer the best way to travel, nor do they offer the
cheapest. Typically, economy carriers over-promise and under-deliver. Maybe that's why 95 percent of all start-up carriers fail. By far, economic carriers provide nothing more than the simplest service -treating people like a commodity.
In fact, some of the services can be down right demeaning. One major European economy carrier recently announced that future aircraft will not have window shades or seat pockets. Instead, your seat back will be plastered with advertising. What's next, coin-operated toilets?
Despite pedestrian service, economy airlines enjoy a mass influx of converts. Is this tectonic exodus well-deserved - or just a matter of spin?
The truth is, it's spin.
The greatest spin happens when economy carriers are called low-fare airlines.
Referring to them as "low-cost" is duplicitous. Consider a recent sampling of fares for a round trip flight from Washington, D.C. (Dulles) to Oakland,
Calif., departing June 8th, returning June 10th. "Low-fare" JetBlue offered a $275 fare, while "high-cost" Delta Air Lines yielded a $219.40 price, which included a chance for an upgrade.
Here's another example. This past week while planning a trip from Los Angeles to Philadelphia, I compared fares on Delta Air Lines and Southwest. Delta offered an upgradeable fare for $304, while Southwest's fare was $408.
And they call Southwest a low-fare airline? Please.
Southwest Airlines and its protégés have chiefly succeeded by cherry-picking routes and city pairs, flying between airports with the lowest landing fees - shifting schedules to match passenger demand, operating one type of aircraft that are cheaper to maintain, and easier to fill. They also have lower distribution cost (selling tickets direct and on the Internet), and a cheap labor force.
All of these variables with the exception of labor cost are easily duplicated.
However, they do not always serve the best interest of travel consumers.
By only serving a limited number of markets, economy carriers are selfishly saying that their customer's needs are not important. They serve limited markets to save money.
But the reality is that travelers' needs extend beyond one or two destinations.
Fact is, air travelers need access to the world.
Moreover, economy carriers typically operate from secondary airports sometimes up to 30 miles away from the city centers. In contrast, full service carriers offer steady global coverage from major airports with seamless connections, and the ease of transferring to partner airlines within their alliances (Star Alliance, One World, SkyTeam).
Oh, and one other thing. One size of aircraft does not fit all. Airlines that
only fly one type of aircraft have a fixed capacity. This makes it difficult
for flight schedulers to deal with cancelled or delayed flights. Since all
flights carry the same number of people which are usually full, passengers
whose flights are canceled due to mechanical reasons, or weather, can't be put on another aircraft - because there is no room.
Having a diverse fleet, allows full-service carriers to increase capacity with
a larger plane when a flight is canceled, providing customers with greater
convenience and comfort.
Air travel is a complex process at best. By focusing their service through the Internet, limiting the number of customer-contact employees available to serve customers, the so-called "low-fare" carriers are seeking self-interest at their customer's expense.
The Internet alone cannot resolve all ticketing issues. With limited customer contact support, passengers of economy carriers often are forced to navigate the Byzantine world of ticketing rules on their own. Full-service air carriers tend to have a higher ratio of full-service employees which might go unnoticed until there is a weather delay or flight cancellation, than these extra people can really help.
Why should travelers choose full-service carriers? There are a myriad of
reasons, including cost, comfort, choice, and convenience. It's the ability to fly anywhere in the world with seamless connections, the choice between luxurious first class, an comfortable business class or an enjoyable economy class, while being politely served.
Competitive fares that are sometimes lower than economy carriers, loyalty programs that are not in danger of going away (despite bankruptcy. United's MileagePlus program remains solid). There are in-flight meals, a choice of drinks, a range of entertainment options including movies, television programs, games and music.
In essence, it's a lifestyle choice.
The big three airlines have been serving customers for 75 years. A formidable feat, considering they have weathered an economic depression, numerous recessions, six wars, political turmoil, and changing consumer preference. Certainly, newbie economic carriers have room to prove themselves.
Until then, I think I'll stick with my first-class flights, boarding priority,
flying up front at a coach price and the preferred security lines.
Joel Widzer is author of "The Penny Pincher's Passport to Luxury Travel," a
guidebook on traveling in high style at budget-friendly prices.
Rebel I agree with you.
It is OK to criticize AC all the time. Any negative views or comments is accepted as gospel truth and seen as well deserve. Granted AC hasn’t the most stellar record, but they’re learning. Better late then never!
It is not OK to criticize WJ. Any negative views or reports is seen as untrue and fiction, not fact. I think WJ as taken the status of religious sect for some. The level of fanatism against anyone who brings a level of reality into this “bubble” is amazing! When reality hits, it will be painful for some ....
WJ has lost it's ways. Power corrupts...
About WJ as a low fare carrier. This is the biggest bull-sh*t I have ever heard. Leather seat, TV's and “buy your own mystery meal” on board? Low cost carrier? My ass. A low cost carrier doesn’t spend tons of money to get leather seats and TV’s. Why? Because this expense is pass down to the customer with higher fare. I couldn’t care less about leather seats and TV or Movies; if I’m hungry I’ll pack a lunch thank you very much. Low fare? Have you check Jetsgo and Canjet website lately? How about Air Canada? How' bout that?
Clive has said during WJ regular Cheerleading meetings that Air Canada will be finished by Dec 2003 and Jetsgo will go bankrupt because it was headed by mike Leblanc and they were using the wrong type of aircraft(?). Not very inspiring now, is he? Not only that, but how ironic that with all the WJ brainwashing and rhetoric they will, in the end, bail AC at their own expense! Are you still cheering??
The Westjet leadership will get their ass wiped and the Westjet people and investors (stock holders) will pay for it. Will the flying public pay for it too in higher fares? Time will tell. In any case Jetsgo and Canjet will benefit from it, again!
Don’t get me wrong, truly no-frills low-cost carrier have their place in this industry and bring about competition which is good for the consumer. Good examples are Jetgo and Canjet.
Shclem, WJ troll, good buddy, flame away…
It is OK to criticize AC all the time. Any negative views or comments is accepted as gospel truth and seen as well deserve. Granted AC hasn’t the most stellar record, but they’re learning. Better late then never!
It is not OK to criticize WJ. Any negative views or reports is seen as untrue and fiction, not fact. I think WJ as taken the status of religious sect for some. The level of fanatism against anyone who brings a level of reality into this “bubble” is amazing! When reality hits, it will be painful for some ....
WJ has lost it's ways. Power corrupts...
About WJ as a low fare carrier. This is the biggest bull-sh*t I have ever heard. Leather seat, TV's and “buy your own mystery meal” on board? Low cost carrier? My ass. A low cost carrier doesn’t spend tons of money to get leather seats and TV’s. Why? Because this expense is pass down to the customer with higher fare. I couldn’t care less about leather seats and TV or Movies; if I’m hungry I’ll pack a lunch thank you very much. Low fare? Have you check Jetsgo and Canjet website lately? How about Air Canada? How' bout that?
Clive has said during WJ regular Cheerleading meetings that Air Canada will be finished by Dec 2003 and Jetsgo will go bankrupt because it was headed by mike Leblanc and they were using the wrong type of aircraft(?). Not very inspiring now, is he? Not only that, but how ironic that with all the WJ brainwashing and rhetoric they will, in the end, bail AC at their own expense! Are you still cheering??
The Westjet leadership will get their ass wiped and the Westjet people and investors (stock holders) will pay for it. Will the flying public pay for it too in higher fares? Time will tell. In any case Jetsgo and Canjet will benefit from it, again!
Don’t get me wrong, truly no-frills low-cost carrier have their place in this industry and bring about competition which is good for the consumer. Good examples are Jetgo and Canjet.
Shclem, WJ troll, good buddy, flame away…
Blastor
It is ok to critcize. Rebel does a great job of this. The blood that flows through his vains must of the reddest you'll ever see. His posts bring the AC view point to the table in a factual and intelligent manner.
You, however, bring nothing to the table. You're endless anti-westjet posts are the equivilant of verbal diarrhea.
It is ok to critcize. Rebel does a great job of this. The blood that flows through his vains must of the reddest you'll ever see. His posts bring the AC view point to the table in a factual and intelligent manner.
You, however, bring nothing to the table. You're endless anti-westjet posts are the equivilant of verbal diarrhea.
VERY well put.Thompsonav8rboy wrote:Blastor
It is ok to critcize. Rebel does a great job of this. The blood that flows through his vains must of the reddest you'll ever see. His posts bring the AC view point to the table in a factual and intelligent manner.
You, however, bring nothing to the table. You're endless anti-westjet posts are the equivilant of verbal diarrhea.
Blastur labels me a troll but 5 of the last 9 topics started in this WJ forum are his attempt to let everyone know how evil WJ is and then he/she can't discuss it with someone with a neutral or different POV on this.
You don't need flames Blastur... you need to just relax and stop worrying about WJ so much.
Pie Lot,
You are dead wrong about WJ management not committing a criminal act in stealing AC's data. An individual former AC/CAL employee had legal possession and use of a password for the AC computer system; not WJ or an agent for WJ.
I agree, at this time, it is unlikely any criminal charges, or even an investigation, will be initiated in this matter. However, that is only because it involves a relatively minor level of harm to a corporation, as opposed to an individual person. The matter can be satisfactorily resolved through litigation with the aggrieved AC receiving appropriate compensation, and WJ financial penalty. I also agree that any award will not come close to be enough to "bail out" AC or to cause long term finanical harm to WJ. However, if WJ looses, the legal bills and award may well wipe out several quarter's profits and make WJ shares a whole lot less attractive for sometime to come.
As well, depending on what evidence comes out at trial, the crown will still have the option of persuing the matter in the criminal justice system. For example, under what circumstances did Mr. Hill give up his password to WJ management? Was he coerced, threatened, etc? Any element of that nature may well trigger a criminal investigation.
Spin it as you like, WJ mangement F'd up big time and has plunged their company into a long and expensive legal process over which they have little control. This matter could easily be dragging through the courts for the next 5 years, not including appeals, hanging over WJ like a big cloud of finanical uncertainty. That is just the kind of thing investors really like; after they've appropriately discounted the share price!
You are dead wrong about WJ management not committing a criminal act in stealing AC's data. An individual former AC/CAL employee had legal possession and use of a password for the AC computer system; not WJ or an agent for WJ.
I agree, at this time, it is unlikely any criminal charges, or even an investigation, will be initiated in this matter. However, that is only because it involves a relatively minor level of harm to a corporation, as opposed to an individual person. The matter can be satisfactorily resolved through litigation with the aggrieved AC receiving appropriate compensation, and WJ financial penalty. I also agree that any award will not come close to be enough to "bail out" AC or to cause long term finanical harm to WJ. However, if WJ looses, the legal bills and award may well wipe out several quarter's profits and make WJ shares a whole lot less attractive for sometime to come.
As well, depending on what evidence comes out at trial, the crown will still have the option of persuing the matter in the criminal justice system. For example, under what circumstances did Mr. Hill give up his password to WJ management? Was he coerced, threatened, etc? Any element of that nature may well trigger a criminal investigation.
Spin it as you like, WJ mangement F'd up big time and has plunged their company into a long and expensive legal process over which they have little control. This matter could easily be dragging through the courts for the next 5 years, not including appeals, hanging over WJ like a big cloud of finanical uncertainty. That is just the kind of thing investors really like; after they've appropriately discounted the share price!
Just out of curiousity, has anybody read the affidivits from this case?
Jeff Lafonds password and privilages expired December 31, 2003, yet Mark Hill was able to access the data as late as March 31, if my memory serves me correct. Emails and conversations also prove that Air Canada knew that the website was being accessed numerous times but did nothing to stop it, several times in fact. This case is more complex than most seem to acknowledge.
I don't like jumping in on these debates, especially since we have no control over them but there's a lot of uninformed crap being said in here. The newspapers aren't reliable sources of REAL information. Newspapers report quotes which illicit a debate, such as these. Most of them are taken out of context anyway.
Jeff Lafonds password and privilages expired December 31, 2003, yet Mark Hill was able to access the data as late as March 31, if my memory serves me correct. Emails and conversations also prove that Air Canada knew that the website was being accessed numerous times but did nothing to stop it, several times in fact. This case is more complex than most seem to acknowledge.
I don't like jumping in on these debates, especially since we have no control over them but there's a lot of uninformed crap being said in here. The newspapers aren't reliable sources of REAL information. Newspapers report quotes which illicit a debate, such as these. Most of them are taken out of context anyway.
