Comair 5191 / Lexington

[the_professor]

"Flight 5191 had also been cleared to taxi and take off from runway 22, but the plane attempted instead to take off from runway 26, which is 3,500 feet long, has no lights and is not approved for nighttime use. It was still dark at 6:07 a.m., when the plane attempted to take off from the shorter runway."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The whole field's lit up, but let's taxi onto the dark runway."
"Sounds good."
"Boy it's dark over here."
"Yeah."
"Wonder why that other runway is lit up?"
"Dunno, probably trying to save power on this one."
"Ok, power's set."
"Ok. Boy this looks tight. Must be the darkness playing tricks on my eyes."
[Stall horn sounds and continues until the end of the recording]

[co-joe]

Wow, you had to go to university to come up with that one didn't you?

[short bus]

Day late and a buck short there prof

Whatcha got for an encore? OJ jokes?

[the_professor]

Last I'd read, they'd still not confirmed that the lights were definitely off on the departure runway. Story is in the news again because of drug testing results.

I've followed the story since day one, and didn't think my post was necessarily original. Just wanted to highlight again the almost impossibly bizarre/negligent series of assumptions and/or screw-ups that could have led to this accident.

But don't worry, I know, I know... "it could happen to any of us", right?

[bob sacamano]

But don't worry, I know, I know... "it could happen to any of us", right?

Wrong.

You don't fly, so can't happen to you.

[Hedley]

I've followed the story since day one

Wow, that must make you some kind of expert!! On the subject of expertise, how many thousands of hours of pilot in command time have you logged?

P.S. Say "hi" to Gilligan and Mary Ann for me. I always thought Mary Ann was WAY hotter than Ginger. Sorta like on WKRP - Bailey was 10x hotter than the peroxide bovine blonde.

[gr8gazu]

I can't comment either way on the _professors experience but lets not defend the crew's undeniable failure for sake of sticking together as a group. I am pretty sure the final report on this accident will place "significant" blame on the pilots....

Hedley, I agree whole heartedly with your comments on Mary Anne and Bailey

[. .]

Professor: I promise you there are smarter people who've ended up smeared across the ground all over the world. To think that you're above something like this happening is only setting you up for disaster. The safest pilots I've flown with have always been the ones that realize that they aren't bulletproof like you.

[Doc]

All this happened while the ONLY tower controler sat with his thumb up his ass doing paperwork....THE FAA REQUIRES TWO (that's 2) PERSONS TO BE ON DUTY IN THE TOWER!!!!! Somebody should HANG!! Just one more "link" in the chain that couldn't bother to show up...so, lets blame the whole bloody thing on the pilots???

[Hedley]

I might politely suggest that anyone who suggest that they would never, ever make a mistake after staying up all night is full of excrement.

[politically_incorrect]

But don't worry, I know, I know... "it could happen to any of us", right?

Wrong.

You don't fly, so can't happen to you.

As a matter of fact, I do.

[politically_incorrect]

The safest pilots I've flown with have always been the ones that realize that they aren't bulletproof like you.

Never said I was bulletproof.

It is not wrong to criticize a crew's actions simply because "it might happen to me". If that were the case, then no crew could ever be criticized for anything on the basis of "it could happen to me/us." Obviously that does not make sense.

Busting an altitude. Could happen to me, yes. Setting the throttles incorrectly vs. filed speed. Yeah, could happen to me. Turning onto a dark runway in a two-crew environment with 50 people behind you is a huge @#$!-up, and should be refered to as such.

[politically_incorrect]

I've followed the story since day one

Wow, that must make you some kind of expert!! On the subject of expertise, how many thousands of hours of pilot in command time have you logged?

Enough to know which runway is suitable for a jet takeoff, and which one should raise questions in my mind.

[gr8gazu]

so, lets blame the whole bloody thing on the pilots???

Ok Doc, your argument has me convinced that I was wrong in my former opinion. I guess the pilots had nothing to do with the accident...

[. .]

I'm not saying it was right for that accident to happen, dispite an obvious set of gross errors.

I am saying: I know what it's like to be on an overnight on absolute min rest, get a crappy sleep because drunk a-holes nextdoor can't keep it down. Wake up to no hot water, wait 15min for the shuttle to show up. Get to the airport and have no flight plan waiting. Finally get the flight plan and clearance lined up and you're already behind the 8 ball to make sked. Taxi out to an airport that you've never been to before, having only one readable taxi chart, praying for the coffee to kick in sometime soon.

I imagine that you'll counter with something along the lines of self imposed pressures. You'll say that you'd never put yourself in that position. These guys who hold the same license as you or I, flew the same plane to the same standards that you or I did to pass a ride are dead now. To assume that lining up on that runway was such a cut and dry issue as you make it out to be is insulting.

The key isn't, don't to take off the unlit 3000 foot runway, everyone already knows RJ's don't do that. The key is being able to break the chain of event's that puts you at the threshold not knowing you have 30 seconds left to live.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Next time someone gears up an airplane of flies into a CB is it the controller's fault??? Gimme a friggin break. Are you people who are blaming the controller for real???

[Doc]

Of course the pilots are to blame! What stupid comment to make gr8! You're sharper than that! These things are all caused by a series of events. Pilots fucking up are a big, BIG part of it...and I agree with the remarks made by politically_incorrect.....this particular mishap is off my table as well...as is going under a bridge rather than overboost a couple of engines like the rocket scientists from Air Florida a few years back. There are @#$!-ups, and then there are @#$!-UPS!!! No doubt about it! Running out of gas over a large city is right up there as well!!

[Doc]

And endless.....with all the things you mentioned.....that's when you should take a deep breath, and make sure all your "ducks" are in a row. BEFORE you "release the hounds"!!

[. .]

Doc: It's so easy to sit back and arm chair QB things. How many times in your career have you wished you could have taken a breather that could have prevented something in hind sight? I'm fairly certian these guys didn't power up knowing that they were a hazard to themselves and their passengers.

[the_professor]

I imagine that you'll counter with something along the lines of self imposed pressures. You'll say that you'd never put yourself in that position. These guys who hold the same license as you or I, flew the same plane to the same standards that you or I did to pass a ride are dead now. To assume that lining up on that runway was such a cut and dry issue as you make it out to be is insulting.

You've heard the one about the pilot and the dog in the aircraft of the future, I'm sure.... The pilot is there to feed the dog, and the dog is there to bite the pilot if he tries to touch anything in the cockpit.

Despite what ignorant chicks might be told (and subsequently believe) at the bar, flying is not terribly difficult. A monkey might actually be able to do it, given enough training.

What is difficult is what Cat makes note of in his signature: the decision making process. That is where the pilots are important, and that's why they're paid for the skill they execute. Because the buck stops with the pilots. It has to. They are the ones charged with the safety of the aircraft, and when they @#$! it up as badly as the crew did in Lexington, they are to blame. Period.

Not the controller who turned his back to do a traffic count. Not some jackass who may have forgot to wire the power to a runway sign's lights. Do pilots live in a bubble? No. Maybe their flight plan was missing. Maybe they did have a lousy sleep. But when those throttles were advanced, there were only two people on earth who made the call to do so.

They failed in their situational awareness and decision making in a horrific manner, and so rightly deserve to be hung out to dry without the caveat of "it could happen to anyone".

[gr8gazu]

Of course the pilots are to blame! What stupid comment to make gr8! You're sharper than that! These things are all caused by a series of events. Pilots fucking up are a big, BIG part of it...and I agree with the remarks made by politically_incorrectabout it!

Sorry Doc, I didn't mean to offend you or take the discussion to "argument" status. The comment was made "tongue in cheek" as the discussion was getting too far away from us accepting that the crew screwed the pooch on that one.

It will be interesting to read the CVR transcripts when released in order to determine the overall tone in the cockpit. That is where blame will be placed. We all looked at another CRJ accident differently when the facts came out that the "dudes" were pushing the aircraft beyond its and their abilities during a position flight. I am hoping the same lack of professionalism didn't apply in this case, but you never know..

There is nearly always a chain that leads to an accident but they are only contributing factors. It is up to us to recognize and break that chain.

Complacency will bite you in the ass in a hurry and those doing the same thing on the same routes with the same SOP's daily are the most susceptable.

The thing that will kill you quickest in an airplane is you. Y'all be careful out there! The paying passengers, and your own mother, deserve better!

[Hedley]

rightly deserve to be hung out to dry

One is dead, and the other is fucked up for life - if he survives. I think they've paid the price.

Does that make you happy? Are you going to go urinate on the grave of the dead pilot? Will that pleasure you somehow, Mr Airchair QB?

You obviously know nothing about flying. I am certain that both of the pilots had time to realize what a horrible mistake had been made, and would have given anything to correct it.

Once you've been around the block a couple time, you will realize that people make mistakes. Most of the time, they get away with it. Some of the time, they don't. Everyone tries as hard as they can, to not make mistakes - to break the so-called chain.

It may have been legal for these pilots to stay up all night, and fly the next morning, but I don't think anyone would argue that their performance in the cockpit would have improved if they had slept the night before. Probably improved enough that this accident wouldn't have happened.

Fatigue in the cockpit is not exactly a new problem

[TG]

Interresting story to read on PPrune:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread ... 94&page=27
post#524

So on my first day back, (after 35 days off), I'm teamed with a new-hire FO. Good chap, but only 50-odd hours in the seat, 1st post-line indoc pairing. He flew the first leg, whilst I got caught up on brekkie and some housekeeping details.

Leg 2. My takeoff brief was routine (however, omitted reference to permanently displaced threshold on planned departure runway), and we requested the longer runway (circuit traffic was on the shorter one, due to light favourable winds).

Cleared to backtrack to position, we carried out the Before Takeoff C/L. Here's my SNAFU: Passing the displaced threshold (Big numbers, big white lines, arrows pointing to it), I turned to line up there. Force of habit, distraction, aircraft on approach 10 miles back, complacency? Pick one...
Tower advises: "Lucky flight 764, you realize you're not at the end of the runway?"

Shock. There's still 1600 feet to go...(8400 disp thrsh vs 10000 full length).
New F/O guy thought about saying something, then didn't based on suppposing I knew what I was doing.

We turned around. Our thrust setting, flap, and speeds all based on 10000 feet. Not 8400. Obviously very long runway in either case...throw in contaminants, an engine failure, whatever, I would have still been fine. I think. However, with ACARS generated (I mean "optimized") calculations, whatever gravy that was there in the good ole days, isn't there in our modern era. (minimal thrust=minimal engine overhaul cost)

Let the same thing happen with shorter runway...you get the picture...

So I put in a company safety report. Then I beat myself up for a few days, and then realized it could happen to us all, and went back to work the next day, a better, professional pilot.

Fly safe fellow colleagues.

Note: in this example the full 10000 ft is available for t/o, but only 8400 for landing...

In Comair's case it's not a "who to blame" thing that must be understood. But, "what bring them to do this horrible mistake"

[the_professor]

You obviously know nothing about flying.

Nope, nothing at all. That's why I spend time on an aviation forum, because I don't understand any of it. My flying and ATC licences don't help much.

Fatigue in the cockpit is not exactly a new problem

If they were so tired that they showed up for their first flight of the day and drove the plane off the wrong runway in the dark, then they probably never had the level of judgement that should be required of pilots in the first place. Call in sick if you're so tired that you're likely to crash the plane.

[sprucemonkey]

We salute you "Mr. ArmchairQuarterBack Guy."