Amphib. Jet

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:42 pm

To those who say the Be-200 is amphibious, can someone post a picture of it at rest on the water? I say this because I could theoretically put a scoop on a 152 but that wouldn't make it amphibious.

SkyKing · Post by **SkyKing** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:02 pm

always liked the russian ground effect vehicles

http://davidszondy.com/future/Flight/GEV.htm

fingersmac · Post by **fingersmac** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:23 pm

Lommer wrote:To those who say the Be-200 is amphibious, can someone post a picture of it at rest on the water? I say this because I could theoretically put a scoop on a 152 but that wouldn't make it amphibious.

Taxing into the water: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1112308/L/

Taxing in the water: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1113308/L/

WJflyer · Post by **WJflyer** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:03 pm

The airplane will also probally make a great FWSAR platform for the CF on both coasts... good speed, amphibious (if the water is calm enough, land right next and pull the guy onboard), good carrying capacity, and rugged. Fit it with Western avionics (perferably the same layout as in the A310 to have cockpit commonality with the CF's fleet), and fitted with a Western engine (RR BR-715 or PW6000). Beriev would probally be interested in doing this, to attract Western orders.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:16 pm

I can just see that machine painted in Yellow and black MNR colors... or a scheme in RED/WHITE ala conair.. Damn!

I'm drooling!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:40 pm

Thanks Linecrew, that was what I wanted to see.

I was wondering about the pitch stability as the probes went down with that T tail.

There was no desernible pitch down during probe extention, however just prior to lift off there was some very mild pitch excersions, but not all that noticeable.

I do not believe they had the probes down long enough to pick up a full load.

But man would I ever love to give type ratings on that beauty.

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:44 pm

Why does this machine carry a FLIR? See it under the left wing?

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:16 pm

Perhaps to see through smoke?

swordfish · Post by **swordfish** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:56 pm

ok the second picture set shows the sponsons; they weren't visible in the first pic of the plane as the wingtips were "cut off"

Not a troll...

swordfish · Post by **swordfish** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:03 pm

Hey Cat! Can you imagine the pitch down when you open the taps on a pickup, with the engines high above the wing like that?

That AND the probe being down should keep you busy for 30 seconds or so...

WJflyer · Post by **WJflyer** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:46 pm

Spokes wrote:Why does this machine carry a FLIR? See it under the left wing?

The Russians are in love with FLIR. All of their most modern fighters from the Su-27 and MiG-29 carry this system for stealthy spotting of targets in lieue of radar detection.

Front. · Post by **Front.** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:57 pm

that's indeed a very cool plane

KnownIce · Post by **KnownIce** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:58 pm

Cat Driver wrote: I wonder what its fuel burn would be while water bombing?

I was wondering that too. Can't seem to find a clear number to compare it to anything but the best comparison I can offer is that "In a fire-fighting mission, the fully fuelled aircraft can fly 200km from the airfield to a water reservoir, make successive trips between the site of the fire and the reservoir (over a range of 10km from the fire zone to the reservoir), to drop a total of 310,000kg of water on the fire and make the 200km return flight to the airfield for refuelling." The same site later listed the fuel capacity as 12,260kg (http://www.aerospace-technology.com/pro ... ev_be-200/).

By comparison, the CL-415 has been quoted as capable of dropping 378,000kg of water (more than the BE200) on a single mission including a 45-minute ferry (comparable at max cruise of 376 kph), with a fuel capacity of 5796kg (roughly 1/2). No idea on the distance between fire and water source in this figure - my guess is a fair bit less than 10km. (http://www.wildfirenews.com/fire/articles/cl415.html, http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Re ... 5/415.html).

So roughly speaking they seem more comparable that I initially thought when looking at the mission at hand, but at the end of the day I'd sooner have a poster of a CL-415 on my wall than the BE200. Maybe I'm a bit biased however as I'm currently living in Dryden.

Howitzer · Post by **Howitzer** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:29 am

Crazy Russians, the put a right handed stick on the captains side, and the power levers on the right. Maybe the pilots have two right arms?

FL_CH · Post by **FL_CH** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:35 am

Yeah, that made me think, too

But traditionally, as far as I remember, on aircraft like Tu-154, Il-62 etc, the PF didn't even handle the throttles - it was the Flight Engineer's responsibility... Perhaps, the PNF handles the throttles on the Be-200?

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:23 am

KnownIce wrote:

Maybe I'm a bit biased however as I'm currently living in Dryden.

Nothing can beat a Martin Mars for volume. However the Mars is a Boat not an amphibian.
The current record for a single mission in a CL-415 stands at 100 loads.
1500 US gals/load or 675 tons in a single mission set in 2002.
In metric that would be 613.6m tons or 1,350,000 lbs/613,636 kg water and foam.

Not your average mission I'll grant you but it shows what a 415 is capable of. BTW the aircraft (T-272) needed only fuel when it returned from that mission and was sent right out to another fire within 30 minutes.
They are Maytags if maintained properly.

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:24 am

Cat Driver wrote:Thanks Linecrew, that was what I wanted to see.

I do not believe they had the probes down long enough to pick up a full load.

Hey Cat I don't really pretend to know anything about water bombers, but I did notice that water started coming out of the top of the fuselage after a number of seconds. I was under the impression that this is what happens on the CL415 when it is full, kind of like an overflow??? Could it be the same on this aircraft?

BTD

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:34 pm

BTD wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:Thanks Linecrew, that was what I wanted to see.

I do not believe they had the probes down long enough to pick up a full load.
Hey Cat I don't really pretend to know anything about water bombers, but I did notice that water started coming out of the top of the fuselage after a number of seconds. I was under the impression that this is what happens on the CL415 when it is full, kind of like an overflow??? Could it be the same on this aircraft?

BTD

The overflows besides preventing overfilling perform a couple of important tasks, first if there was no escape path for the air in the tank to go when scooping it would blow the water cabnets off their moorings and the aircraft would flood. A CL215/415 takes 10 to 12 seconds to scoop a full load. Thats the equivalent of three 45 gallon drums a second.

The Mars and the BE200 collect water at an even faster rate. Second, dump a full bottle of what ever, did you notice it chugging and glugging? If there's air coming in to displace that escaping volume beside the outflow it would run much faster. That's what the overflows do. The system on the 215/415 is just an extention and refinement of the Field Avaition system developed by brillant engineer Knox Hawkshaw in the late 1950s. Knox was and still is a very cleaver man.

Hey Cat did you ever meet Knox? I hear he's from your neck of the woods in Ontario.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:43 pm

http://www.caa.co.za/publications_files ... 0.3.02.htm

Siberian seaplane sets new records

The FAI (Federation Aeronautique Internationale) has recently ratified a number of new world records set by the Russian Be-200 amphibian, amongst them time - to - climb records for heights up to 9000 metres (30 000ft).

In Sub-class C-2i (Seaplanes: take-off weight 25 000 to 35 000 kg) Group 3 : turbo-jet the following records were achieved:

Course/location : Gelendzhik, Black Sea (Russia)

Pilot : Konstantin BABICH (Russia)
Crew : Dmitry MOROZOV, Nikolai KUZNETSOV, Nikolai OKHOTNIKOV

Time to climb to a height of 3000 m - 3 min 38 sec
Time to climb to 3000 m with 1000 kg payload - 3 min 38 sec
Time to climb to 3000 m with 2000 kg payload - 3 min 38 sec
Time to climb to a height of 6000 m - 7 min 54 sec
Time to climb to 6000 m with 1000 kg payload - 7 min 54 sec
Time to climb to 6000 m with 2000 kg payload - 7 min 54 sec
Time to climb to a height of 9000 m - 17 min 29 sec
Time to climb to 9000 m with 1000 kg payload - 17 min 29 sec
Time to climb to 9000 m with 2000 kg payload - 17 min 29 sec

The Beriev Be200 amphibian was designed for multi operating roles. The mission profiles were defined as; water bomber used for fighting forest fires, passenger operations, cargo transportation, air ambulance, and, search-and-rescue missions, patrol a 200-mile economic zone, service geological survey parties and expeditions, conduct sea fish and ice prospecting, detect oil containation on water surfaces, etc.

The Be-200 is produced by Beta, a joint venture between Beriyev Design Bureau in the southern city of Taganrog and manufacturers Irkutsk Aviation Industrial Association, and will serve as a "multipurpose amphibious aircraft."

The aircraft can be easily converted to perform a number of different missions.

The version of the aircraft intended for fighting forest fires is fitted with four water tanks with water discharge hatches arranged in pairs in front of and aft of the step. The aircraft can draw up to 12 tonnes of water via its scoops by skimming over the water surface. The high density of the water 'drop' obtained due to the selected design improves effectivness of fire fighting, compared with other aircraft of similar application. The cargo cabin can accommodate 30 firemen with parachute equipment. The Be200 can drop up to 310 tonnes of water per fuel tank load at the distance of 125 miles from the base and a 6 mile water carry to the fire source.
In the passenger version, the cabin can accommodate 68 passengers in tourist class with a seat pitch of 29.5 inches. The amphibian is fitted with a toilet room, wardrobe and a gally/pantry. The crew consists of pilot, co pilot and two attendants.

In the cargo version, the cabin can be filled with containers and/or loose cargoes. The cabin floor is provided with guide rails and a cargo lifting winch. The payload of 8 tonnes can be carried over the range of 680 miles.

In the air ambulance version the cabin is laid out for 7 medical attendants, 30 stretcher cases or 40 seats for invalids.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:07 am

Be200 can drop up to 310 tonnes of water per fuel tank load at the distance of 125 miles from the base and a 6 mile water carry to the fire source.

If a 415 were fueled to 10,000 lbs...
a fire 125 miles out would require 1.3 hours of ferry time out and back minus .7hr reserve leaving 4.2 hours to fire fight. A 6 mile turn-a-round would most likely take 5 minutes or more so at best you could expect to drop 40 to 50 loads max, depending on conditions. So anywhere from 310 tons down to 270 tons.
*If a 415 arrived at a fire carrying 4.9 hours of fuel the first 15 to 16 loads would be less than max to stay under the max scooping weight.
In Ontario the standard fuel load for fire dispatch is usually enough for up to a 4 hour mission. If the dispatch is way up north we put on extra fuel.