Canjet

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:21 am

Would national representation by a strong voice not put an end to much of this? People like KR might not even consider going into business if he knew what pilots are really worth. The CMA takes care of doctors, the Bar association for lawyers and yes even plumbers and electricians have a stronger voice than us. It wouldn't have to be a "union" for all you union haters but some kind of ethics and barganning body for all pilots. Right now it's up to the likes of KR, R. Milton, Clive Beddoe etc. to put a price on our worth and professionalism. Pretty pathetic.

richardhead · Post by **richardhead** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:01 am

If I want a new wheely bag and a paycut I will call a union. However I agree. The owners lobby the government to legislate in their favour. Why can't we. You don't need unions or associations you need large numbers which we have. We need to change the governing rules of our industry. When a truck driver has a more restrictive duty day than a pilot, you know somebody has been asleep at the switch. That's the change we need in this country. Airlines from all around the world work under far more restrictive guidlines than us and the yanks, and they seem to turn profits. How can this be? Canadian owners stick to the argument that a more restrictive duty day would put them out of buisness. Bullshit. The other one I like is that the charter carriers are lowering the standards of Canadian pilots. Double bullshit. Ask anyone who has been overseas. There are more so called low cost carriers than you can shake a stick at. But do you see that countries major carrier handing out paycuts and layoffs. No. They all seem to survive and make money at the same time. Not here though. Here they will never change because we will never change. An instructor will take a job on a 1900 for nothing because he needs the hours, a 1900 driver will take a job on 727 for nothing because he needs the jet time, and 727 driver will take it in the ass because the says" I have kids and a mortgage payment". It will never end until we all come together and challenge the government into changing the rules to benefit us for a change instead of the airlines.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:41 am

If I want a new wheely bag and a paycut I will call a union.

That's funny. I hate to admit it but you're right.

rickenbacker · Post by **rickenbacker** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:11 am

National representation by a strong voice would put an end to a lot of it. The only problem with that is you need UNITY. Right now we eat our young. I think the owners like it this way. We are our own worse enemy. Where else on the planet does a 10 to 20 year veteran in any industry, trade or profession change employers and start at an entry level salary.

richardhead · Post by **richardhead** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:14 am

rickenbacker wrote:National representation by a strong voice would put an end to a lot of it. The only problem with that is you need UNITY. Right now we eat our young. I think the owners like it this way. We are our own worse enemy. Where else on the planet does a 10 to 20 year veteran in any industry, trade or profession change employers and start at an entry level salary.

Exactly!

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:46 am

Certain benefits are dictated by seniority within a company. You can't mess with seniority. If a twenty year veteran decides to go work somewhere else, they do so knowing they start at the bottom along with the salary that equipment pays. What I would like to see is a minimum salary structure for each aircraft type and laws that prohibit training bonds amongsts other things. Low cost carriers would have to pay pilots according to eqipment wieght, speed range, number of pax etc. Heck this could possibly even iliminate the need for unions in a company. Yikes!! A strong political voice in Ottawa would be required and I'm sure the companies would argue that you can't tell them what to do. However, I don't see it as impossible. Just throwing ideas out there. Keepimg in mind the original topic regarding CJ.

green bastard · Post by **green bastard** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:25 am

A strong voice in Ottawa is why ALPA has its office in Ottawa across from the parliament bulidings. ALPA tries to raise the bar (or even it) for all of us, they may not always succeed but at least they try. Those carriers who have ALPA probably needed them, and they have good working conditions now. Example, Canadian, Jazz, AT, KFC, Bearskin etc.

Those carriers who don't have a union, did not need one. Example, Westjet.

richardhead · Post by **richardhead** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:06 pm

green bastard wrote:A strong voice in Ottawa is why ALPA has its office in Ottawa across from the parliament bulidings. ALPA tries to raise the bar (or even it) for all of us, they may not always succeed but at least they try. Those carriers who have ALPA probably needed them, and they have good working conditions now. Example, Canadian, Jazz, AT, KFC, Bearskin etc.

Those carriers who don't have a union, did not need one. Example, Westjet.

Even though they have unions to represent them the rules by which they are governed still are sub par. It will not be a union that changes that.

richardhead · Post by **richardhead** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:12 pm

tonysoprano wrote:Certain benefits are dictated by seniority within a company. You can't mess with seniority. If a twenty year veteran decides to go work somewhere else, they do so knowing they start at the bottom along with the salary that equipment pays. What I would like to see is a minimum salary structure for each aircraft type and laws that prohibit training bonds amongsts other things. Low cost carriers would have to pay pilots according to eqipment wieght, speed range, number of pax etc. Heck this could possibly even iliminate the need for unions in a company. Yikes!! A strong political voice in Ottawa would be required and I'm sure the companies would argue that you can't tell them what to do. However, I don't see it as impossible. Just throwing ideas out there. Keepimg in mind the original topic regarding CJ.

You have really got it for low cost carriers. What's AC or Jazz pay to start. Not much. And don't give me the arguement that size of aircraft matters. The size of the aircraft accident doesn't matter if your loved one is onboard. Does a pilot, f/o or capt on a 50 pax jet as opposed to a 250 pax jet have any less responsibility? maybe in your training dept they do, not in mine.

babybus · Post by **babybus** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:39 pm

Richardhead,

I won't argue with you that the starting pay at AC is lousy.But that's all it is...starting pay.
How much will you make in 3 years,5 years, 10,15 etc...
A 320 FO with 3 years seniority makes good money, and what about a 767 FO etc....
You guys have to stop looking at only the starting pay,,,longer term it's a great job.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:44 pm

Ah yes, I can see the unity of this group working wonders already.
It just makes me laugh how you guys keep harping about the starting salary at AC and you never talk about the salary that the average AC pilot gets. Starting salaries are low everywhere. AC didn't invent low salaries, the low costs did. Maybe not your company but the low cost industry as a whole did. And yes, size does matter. The more revenue you generate, ie. the more pax you carry and how far, the more you should get paid. That's the way it's always been untill the you-know-whos- came along. Economists have correctly identified it as the Walmartization of our industry. Sorry folks, that's reality. Perhaps a topic for another day although I'm so sick of it I really don't care much for it anymore. The other scenario would be status pay where you get paid for years of service rather than size of airplane. The problem with that is you wouldn't get enough concensuss at all the companies. What would be wrong with minimum equipment pay?

richardhead · Post by **richardhead** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:45 pm

Doesn't a BA 47 captain make the same money as a BA 37 captain? I mean if they have both been at the company the same time.

richardhead · Post by **richardhead** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:51 pm

Yes if you are talking security. Your absolutely correct AC is the way to go. The government will never allow AC to go under. But great job. I think not. You know you guys aren't the only two at AC. The AC guys hate the Canadian guys, the Canadian guys hate the AC guys, the FA's hate the pilots, the pilots hate the FA's the mechanics hate everybody, and the service is shit to boot. So please spare me. The only good thing about AC is the security. Oh ya I forgot to mention, everybody at AC, well maybe not everybody hates everybody else because people at AC think that it's the other airlines in the country wrecking their well being. Truth is, it's AC's general attitude.

2low · Post by **2low** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:59 pm

Well said Richard. Couldn't be more right.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:09 pm

Bla Bla Bla.Bla Bla Bla......

Squid · Post by **Squid** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:36 pm

you hit it richard,truth hurts eh tony, still enjoying paying for your dinners over the pond with our wage consessions. eat up

I would rather take the cash home jmho. oh ya my intellectual answer blah blah blah. drink some more red koolaid. here's to mud on our face brother.sorry if I spelt something wrong.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:46 pm

trythis · Post by **trythis** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:12 am

Sorry to disapoint but I was hired at AC 8 months ago and I have been celebrating ever since. I haven't had one AC vs Cdn attitude yet and I have never felt so happy to be working for a company. No more playing favorites on upgrades, no more worrying about duty day, no more being pressured from crewsked or dispatch, no more inconsistant training. Not saying it's perfect by any means but man I'm so friggin happy to be here right now I guess maybe you'll have to give me a few years to get bitter - oh wait in a few years I'll be making 6 figures so just when the bitterness kicks in I'll triple my pay again - .... did I mention i'm happy to be here???

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:43 am

Excellent post.

Rowdy Piper · Post by **Rowdy Piper** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:38 pm

trythis wrote:Sorry to disapoint but I was hired at AC 8 months ago and I have been celebrating ever since. I haven't had one AC vs Cdn attitude yet and I have never felt so happy to be working for a company. No more playing favorites on upgrades, no more worrying about duty day, no more being pressured from crewsked or dispatch, no more inconsistant training. Not saying it's perfect by any means but man I'm so friggin happy to be here right now I guess maybe you'll have to give me a few years to get bitter - oh wait in a few years I'll be making 6 figures so just when the bitterness kicks in I'll triple my pay again - .... did I mention i'm happy to be here???

Good for you J.P

We all know AC is the best!! can we move on now..

BigB · Post by **BigB** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:53 pm

Trythis,

It's honestly nice to see some enthusiasm on this board finally. I commend you.

However, just from past experience, perhaps a word of advice...it's very tough to predict how one will feel in the future. Salary is only a fraction of the bigger equation. I'm sure the folks who were hired in the months prior to CCAA at AC were quite enthusiastic as well. Things change.

That nonetheless, congrats and happy flying.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:16 pm

So what's the latest on CanJet? Any recent news?

flyin' fish · Post by **flyin' fish** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:27 pm

standby for new ATIS message.
standby for new ATIS message.

flynbutcher · Post by **flynbutcher** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:53 pm

all the buzz seems to point to tomorrow for some big news. maybe 1 extra flight on sundays

hopefully it will be good and some good people can get back to work!

green bastard · Post by **green bastard** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:38 pm

From the Globe "CanJet chief operating offer Julie Gossen, who is Mr. Rowe's daughter, will continue in that role in the short term, but she may be transferred to assume greater responsibilities next year at parent company IMP Group Inc., said Mr. Rowe, who owns IMP and serves as its chairman and chief executive officer."

Any thoughts?

Canjet

life is good

Re: life is good