Are you AME out there sick of bad wages

tellyourkidstogetarealjob · Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:19 am

Pat Richard wrote: Also, if KFC is "the top 5%" in payscale's in aviation, that just means there close to the top of the shitpile that is poor wages in Canadian aviation.

Yep. Only what's left of my self respect stops me from going into a fetal position and crying at that thought..

jsmetalbashers · Post by **jsmetalbashers** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:24 am

Hey there's 800 working for KFC right now and 3 on this site that really despise the place, the numbers speak for themselves. I'm not payed to say this stuff I'm just relaying my experiences,this is not the only place that I've worked.
GLI I don't think that a license was a requirement on those contracts, they were hired through CAS.

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:33 am

Yes I know CAS but never worked for them. $50 an hour for an unlicenced position seems pretty good to me. Even at 40 hours a week. Thats my experience in the industry and that is where I am coming from when I say there is money to be made in aviation. But yes there is also is a low end.

Pat Richard · Post by **Pat Richard** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:05 am

Just want to clear up some confusion. The contractors were'nt getting $50 a/hr like js is claiming.
They are paid around 35-40 a/hr by their agency. CAS for sure bills them out for more than they pay them, but I don't know what that amount is. Could be 50.
Some of these guys also said the last time they contracted at KFC(99) they did indeed make upwards of 50 a/hr.
Goes to show how far even contracting has slumped in terms of wages.

Hey there's 800 working for KFC right now and 3 on this site that really despise the place

Heh heh, if only KFC's issues could disappear along with only 3 people

.

I think most know there's more than 3 people in the world who have experienced KFC's conditions, and left with a bad taste in there mouths.

If there isn't more than 3 people, then damn, the internet is much more powerful than I thought!

hoptwoit · Post by **hoptwoit** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:04 pm

Really gli77 if you are going to play devils' advocate, you should develop thicker skin. This was far from a personal attack. Everything I said was purely factual. Remember, perception is everything!!!. Now stop growling at me.

jsmetalbashers · Post by **jsmetalbashers** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:20 pm

I just did a recount and theirs two guys on this post who had bad experiences and a couple who are content with the place. Let's start comparing apples to apples. Tell me of some fixed wing operators that will treat you great all the time, pay you what you want, and don't expect you to sacrifice your marriage and kids lives for the company, pretty rare. Not that this place does'nt make you grin and bear it sometimes and sacrifice a weekend here and there. Don't compare a government funded operation (bridge project) to aviation, its not the same, the government is retarded with our money and would go broke if run like a private operation. My cousin makes +60G a year in the oil field driving around in a truck working 7 on 7 off shift, but he lives in Butthole AB, and thats not what I am looking for in life. Believe it or not lifestyle and where I live counts for something. Your very selective in the places you mention to compare wages to KFC in the OK. You know dam well that we pay some of the highest wages in one of nicest places in the country to live. I don't know what your situation was at Flightcraft Pat but I can assure the rest of the people that read these forums that its not a sweatshop and we're not whipped and beaten here, people don't work somewhere because they have to, they do it because it works for them.
And when the company is paying 50/hr for contract labour and your making 32 it sucks any way you slice it. Its not my fault those guys give there money away to an agency.

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:44 pm

"This is your perception and the perception of many in aviation is that AME’s are not professionals, not skilled and certainly not worth more money."

Nah that's written by you dude and sounds pretty factual to me. Don't confuse defense with not having a thick skin. It's often best to stand by your words and idea's not just spout and retreat. Now my perception is that you are backtracking, but I could be wrong. At any rate lets move on.

So I take it that your passing along the wage increase to the customer idea is never going to be explained. But what about this idea. As someone pointed out we are not recognized as a skilled trade. So while we all assemble here every few weeks to whine and bitch followed by a few offering up something positive followed by an argument, how about we discuss this idea of not being recognized as a skilled trade.

We are up over 1800 hits on this post with only a few writing anything. How about if each of us reading this, the next day at work bring up the idea of being recognized as skilled trades. See if the idea gets any momentum in the break room and on the floor. If it does then lets get the individual momentum into a bigger momentum. For example perhaps a petition. Or get organized into larger representation, for example all the techs at KFC, Cascade just to name a popular few. If we've still got interest and 10 000 names on a petition then lets lobby these great associations like CAMC and the AME association. Lets hit Transport Canada with it. Start hassling your local member of parliament where every AMO is based.

How about the moderators on AVCANADA?? You have a mentor program how about an online pettion for this??

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:00 pm

Hey Pat your post made me think of something. You said the guys are getting $35-$40 for contract at KFC now but were getting $50 in 1999. But in between that time we had 9/11, SARS and the IRAQ war. The industry in Canada was drained in 2002 and it looked very bad for AC.

Now of course we are on the upswing again but it appears from these numbers that wages are lagging behind. If you are correct and the KFC contractors were recently accepting $40/hour then I do not see it as a negative for aviation. I see it as business controlling the market, and everyones arch enemy, the guy beside them willing to work for less. But I do not see any way to fix this problem, other than recognize this reality and either stay or go. Any thoughts?

Pat Richard · Post by **Pat Richard** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:17 pm

Don't compare a government funded operation (bridge project) to aviation, its not the same, the government is retarded with our money and would go broke if run like a private operation

Where did the money come from for the new hangar that was built for you, and the two prior to that(t33/main)? Government
So I'd have to yes to them being retarded with our money.
As for the rest of your post, I've addressed most of it, I just don't think your absorbing it for whatever reason and it has become a ping pong match.
All Im gonna say is people with my opinion/experiences(as recent as summer of this year) are what most, if not all, will encounter when they meet an ex KFC employee, recent or past
Admit it or not, like it or not, thats their rep outside the kingdom of ylw.

You know dam well that we pay some of the highest wages in one of nicest places in the country to live

My response was - Also, if KFC is "the top 5%" in payscale's in aviation, that just means there close to the top of the shitpile that is poor wages in Canadian aviation.
What's a decent house going for again in ylw, and how much of a mortgage does that awesome M2 starting wage get me again??

Im saying their payscale is completely out to lunch with the cost of living, unless you have a sugar momma to help out. Im sure you'll disagree..

As for gli's question -

But I do not see any way to fix this problem, other than recognize this reality and either stay or go. Any thoughts?

Personally, I think it gets down to ones patience for change, and inevitably will come down to stay or go.
Perhaps if more people were aware of what was being made 7 years ago, they would demand more.
Trouble is, most have gotten used to the low pay being offered by companies over the years, so 35-40 a/hr looks appealing as a contractor.
I think a combination of companies raising there payscales significantly(hold on/attract qualified AME's)and more work being available might help out in the short term.
The potential detrement to this being a long term trend is the masses of recent newbs gaining there licenses and undercutting any progress made.
I think that is the master plan for the industry, but I don't think they foresaw the huge potential sponge effect of all the other trades booming also.
So I guess it remains to be seen what happens, and up to the individual to whether or not to remain in.
Dunno if thats an answer, but it's what I think.

jsmetalbashers · Post by **jsmetalbashers** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:39 pm

Hey Cascade got 50 mil for there hangar we only got 2. Lets beat up on them for a little while.

. I give up, you win.

hoptwoit · Post by **hoptwoit** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:58 pm

How about if each of us reading this, the next day at work bring up the idea of being recognized as skilled trades. See if the idea gets any momentum in the break room and on the floor. If it does then lets get the individual momentum into a bigger momentum. For example perhaps a petition. Or get organized into larger representation, for example all the techs at KFC, Cascade just to name a popular few. If we've still got interest and 10 000 names on a petition then lets lobby these great associations like CAMC and the AME association. Lets hit Transport Canada with it. Start hassling your local member of parliament where every AMO is based.

Gli77 you know you may be on to something with that idea and it's the first sign of taking a step forward. My hat's off to ideas like that. Now we are both trying to move industry ahead.

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:16 pm

So it seems no one is interested in becoming recognized as a trade besides hoptwoit.

Could it be the group is good at bitching and nothing else?

I see there is already another post about how much aviation sucks.

motox415 · Post by **motox415** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:37 pm

I am definately interested. The million dollar question is how do we get the ball rolling?

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:45 pm

How about running the idea in all the Canadian aviation magazines? See if there is any response. Or simply run the idea in the form of a petition. Every AME can reply with their name and licence #. Apprentices should of course be allowed to sign as well.

It seems to me there is a magazine published strictly for aircraft maintenance in Canada, but can not recall the name of it. Does anyone know?

We've also got Vertical Magazine, Helicopters Magazine, Wings Magazine, Canadian Aviation Magazine. The TC maintenance safety booklets that we all get. Did I miss any?

Pat Richard · Post by **Pat Richard** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:18 pm

The petition idea sounds like the option with the most promise to me, and the magazines would be the best bet for making the issue known.
Bringing up any suggestion of "organizing" is a sure fire way to get fastracked out the door at most places, so I don't think many would be into it.
I saw just that at K...whups

.

Im done with that for now

hoptwoit · Post by **hoptwoit** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:40 am

I agree with Pat Richard the petition is the least intrusive from an industry point of view. Likely to get most amount of attention from AMEs and least amount of attention from managment.
Before we go throught the whole process of setting up a PO box to send the completed petitions to. Let's find out what kind of interest there really is here for this type of an idea. Can we start a poll right here to find out how many AME's and how many apprentices would be willing to sign there name and licence # on a petition to have the AME recognized as a skilled trade.
At the moment I am very busy but in the next while I will make a few phone calls to the apprentiship boards provincialy and see what i can get out of them before we go rattling TC cages. We need the right wording for the petition and the right people to talk to. In the mean time let's get the poll started. How do we set one up here. do we need the moderaters help. In the poll we need indicate AME or apprentice and a yes or no colum for each. Will this work ?

our_kid2000 · Post by **our_kid2000** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:50 am

I'm in!

We really should get in touch with the magazines........see what we can accomplish.

Stumper · Post by **Stumper** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:05 pm

I'm in as well! lets get the word out.

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:10 am

I posted on the poll as well, since I'm not sure which place would be more appropriate. I've heard allegations on this site that AME is not considered a skilled trade. What is the basis of this claim?

http://www.apprenticetrades.ca/EN/displ ... cleID=1074
http://www.saskapprenticeship.ca/module ... files_main
http://www.skillscanada.com/en/youth/profiles/index.php
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/maint ... .htm#Basic

You can't get an AME license without proving that you have the OTJ training, plus whatever curriculum TC demands.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/maint ... l/menu.htm

Still very confused as to what you are referring to when you say skilled trade. Even CAMC said that an AME is considered a skilled trade.

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:25 pm

Interesting posts Norskman! They certainly do contradict where we ended up on this topic.

I have heard it said before that AME's are not recognized as a skilled trade but never really cared too much. I went back and read through this forum and it seems that Stan Kehoe first mentioned that we are not skilled trades so perhaps he has more information on this.

hoptwoit · Post by **hoptwoit** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:15 pm

For the moment I cannot confirm if the term "skilled Trade" is the correct representation of what is being discussed here.
That being said the fact is that the classification of the AME trade (skilled or otherwise) falls between the cracks of provincial and federal regulation. The AME trade is regulated by Transport Canada. They have set out certain requirements to obtain a license. The short list is;
1) Complete Transport Canada accredited basic training program.
2) Perform 70% of the tasks pertaining to the license applied for.
3) Carry out 4800 hours of employment.
4) Write and pass the CARs test

Apprenticeship \Ap*pren"tice*ship\, n.
1. The service or condition of an apprentice; the state in
which a person is gaining instruction in a trade or art,
under legal agreement.

Above is the Webster’s dictionary definition of Apprentice.
You will notice under #3 I did not say complete a 4 year apprenticeship. That is because when it comes to AMEs there is no such thing as an apprentice. Don't believe me ask Dave Dueck he teaches the CARs courses some of us may have attended.
An apprentice enters into a contract between the apprenticeship board the employer and the employee. AMEs sign no such contract.
This contract mandates the minimum pay rates for the apprentice based on a percentage of the journeyman wage. AMEs have no such wage guarantees.
This governing body that administrates the contract mandates a ratio between journeyman and apprentices. In the Heavy Equipment Tech trade for example the ratio of apprentices to journeyman is 1 to1. This ensures that the apprentice gets proper mentoring from the journeyman and learns the trade correctly. The AME has no such guidelines. I have seen many shops with 4 apprentices to 1 licensed AME.

There is also confusion when it comes to “Trade Certification” I have provided a link to HRDC the quote that is interesting here is “Trade certification for aircraft maintenance engineers is available, but voluntary, in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.” I searched under “trade certification” and got a hit on the CAMC website but the tab marked “certification is under construction.
I was also looking at the CAMC website and could not find the College I went to on their list of accredited schools so where does that leave me. Where does that leave any of us?

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:42 pm

There seems to be a lot of titles and things in quotation marks and with respect to wages I dont think any of it makes a difference, or will make a difference.

I think to put simply we have licenced people and unlicenced people. I think if the pool of unlicenced people is reduced and/or strictly regulated then that will drive wages up. Going back to a supply and demand concept.

As hoptwoit pointed out there are shops with 4 apprentices to 1 ame. But in our field all an apprentice is, is an unlicened person who may, or may not know anything about aircraft.

How do you mandate an apprentice pay scale in aviation when that apprentice may be working at AC, MRO, Helicopters, GA or an FTU? Of all those categories there can be up to a $12/hour split.

hoptwoit · Post by **hoptwoit** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:13 am

How do you mandate an apprentice pay scale in aviation when that apprentice may be working at AC, MRO, Helicopters, GA or an FTU? Of all those categories there can be up to a $12/hour split.

Gli77 instead of asking more questions like that. Why don't you have a look at one of the apprenticeship agreements from another trade and see how they do it. Instead of me explaining it to you explain it to me.

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:23 am

Because hoptwoit I dont think the regulation of apprentice wages is a good idea therefore I don't see why I would research someone elses idea. I will state an opinion, explain my opinion, listen to your opinion and support it or not, but not research your opinion.

As I stated earlier two of my classmates a decade ago started at AC for $21/hour and I started at $11/hour. But the company I started with and AC had very very little in common, and I was quite happy with the experience I would get at said company. I should also say that in 3 years time I had climbed to $22/hour while my classmates at AC had not moved very far.

Therefore it is my opinion that if more regulation is to be enforced it should not be with regards to wages, but with reagrds to who may work in the aircraft maintenance field.

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:34 am

Thanks for pointing this information out to me! I have failed to read the missing information, even on the sask apprenticeship web site. Electricians need to be working as an apprentice, just to be working in the field, and at 1:1. It looks like an Automotive service tech doesn't have to be a journeyman, but if you DO want to go that way, again 1:1.
AME? Nothing.

At least I am clear on what was being meant by skilled trade now. Thanks again. This is truly outrageous to find out.