Pratt, the point is no longer just aobut knowing about it. It's often good to ask why. Such as why doesn't everyone know about this word? Why did the controller expect the pilot to know that using the word trip is illegal in his eyes?
The point is now how were we supposed to know? What other words exist, that when I use them without knowledge of this on the radio, NORAD might be called up, and fighters send to intercept me ready to shoot me down in this day and age. Sure all of us in this forum now know about the word 'trip', but what about all the other pilots out there who somehow don't read the AvCanada forums?
Using the word "Trip"
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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Right Seat Captain
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Mitch Cronin
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This is incredible!
Yo... All you who fly little chickenscrath birdies don't need to know! Perhaps that's why you never knew?
Honestly, it's gotta be that simple! Those that need to know, do know. Those that don't, never did... That controller who got excited by someone flying a little piddler and using the word, probably just learned it himself, and didn't have a clue that it wasn't applicable to little piddlers. Obviously the piddler pilot commited no error. He wasn't in the loop BECAUSE HE DIDN'T NEED TO BE!
Good grief! Such a ruckus over nuthin!
Yo... All you who fly little chickenscrath birdies don't need to know! Perhaps that's why you never knew?
Honestly, it's gotta be that simple! Those that need to know, do know. Those that don't, never did... That controller who got excited by someone flying a little piddler and using the word, probably just learned it himself, and didn't have a clue that it wasn't applicable to little piddlers. Obviously the piddler pilot commited no error. He wasn't in the loop BECAUSE HE DIDN'T NEED TO BE!
Good grief! Such a ruckus over nuthin!
I guess what you all should be aware of is that Code is SOP in all airline operations and what is important to them they make sure their employees know. There would be thousands of flight attendents who know this as a lot of the flight deck-cabin communications are not done face to face. Just be aware that just because you don't know about it that it coulden't exist or it must be stupid.
Cool your jets
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Regruntled
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Last edited by Regruntled on Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dumb question: what CAR would you be charged with violating? I just looked at CAR 602.133 to 602.138 and I don't see anything there which applies. Does anyone else know?
See, our buddies at Transport can only charge us with violating a regulation which exists. They could go with 602.01 but that wouldn't stick, imho.
There is no magic CAR that says, "Every pilot must be personally liked and admired by Transport", although Transport does certainly act as if such a regulation does in fact exist.
See, our buddies at Transport can only charge us with violating a regulation which exists. They could go with 602.01 but that wouldn't stick, imho.
There is no magic CAR that says, "Every pilot must be personally liked and admired by Transport", although Transport does certainly act as if such a regulation does in fact exist.
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rightseatwonder
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ive only ever heard it once refered to and that was by an AC fa who told me that they used it to alert other flight crew as to a hijak..ie fa to capt etc...i didnt know that it was used to communicate to atc....
what im thinking is that if you added "trip" (oopps can i type that here??!? shite) to the end of a transmission...would atc "scramble fighters" and sound the siren? wouldnt they have to at least TRY to comfirm it as they do with 7500 on the squawk? (oopps can i type 7500 here??!?!) shirte...i better not type 7600 or ill get flashing green lights shone in my bedroom window!
and that would be a funny conversation with somebody who had no earthly clue as to what (whispering)..."trip" meant!
Atc...this is cessna 172 c-beer on a vfr trip from buthole to backwater level at 3500.
cessna 172 c-beer confirm you're on a.....TRIP... form buthole to back water?????
AH yes thats affirm?!
Cessna 172 C-beer are you sure you're on a ....TRIP!!!!!!!
umm...ya!?
Whoop! whoop WHOOP! WHOOP! quick get out your current cfs for intercept orders!!!
what im thinking is that if you added "trip" (oopps can i type that here??!? shite) to the end of a transmission...would atc "scramble fighters" and sound the siren? wouldnt they have to at least TRY to comfirm it as they do with 7500 on the squawk? (oopps can i type 7500 here??!?!) shirte...i better not type 7600 or ill get flashing green lights shone in my bedroom window!
and that would be a funny conversation with somebody who had no earthly clue as to what (whispering)..."trip" meant!
Atc...this is cessna 172 c-beer on a vfr trip from buthole to backwater level at 3500.
cessna 172 c-beer confirm you're on a.....TRIP... form buthole to back water?????
AH yes thats affirm?!
Cessna 172 C-beer are you sure you're on a ....TRIP!!!!!!!
umm...ya!?
Whoop! whoop WHOOP! WHOOP! quick get out your current cfs for intercept orders!!!
On the subject of formating with an elderly F-18 (called CF-188 in Canada): it's going to be working pretty hard to slow down to 110 KIAS. High alpha, FBW banging the rudders back and forth. Assuming they have one that's working that day.
In the inlikely event the blessed event occurs, for safety I think one should minimize airspeed to reduce energy in case of impact - Vsse comes to mind
In the inlikely event the blessed event occurs, for safety I think one should minimize airspeed to reduce energy in case of impact - Vsse comes to mind
Hey I got an idea, how about we put all the secretive words and ways to inform ATC about a hijacking, on a public forum!!!!
The whole reason that most of you weren't informed of this is because a hijacking in a two-seat plane is usually considered a back seat driver. The reason no Air Canada pilots are responding to this post is because it is need to know information and unless you are going to leave here and fly off in your Airliner with 50+ passangers, you don't need to know about it.
In fact having this post on this forum is compromising national security and it should be removed. Do you see the CIA on a public forum explaining their code words to the public. There have been 1500 views of this confidential information and we all know that 200 of those are going to go straight to their non-pilot friends to tell them all about it. The hijackers of 9-11 had taken aviation 101 and knew about 7500, don't you think a more discrete secretive word such as "trip" would be useful? Now how about we keep it that way. Use some discretion and know when to discuss items in private. Moderator's do us all a favor and remove this topic!!
The whole reason that most of you weren't informed of this is because a hijacking in a two-seat plane is usually considered a back seat driver. The reason no Air Canada pilots are responding to this post is because it is need to know information and unless you are going to leave here and fly off in your Airliner with 50+ passangers, you don't need to know about it.
In fact having this post on this forum is compromising national security and it should be removed. Do you see the CIA on a public forum explaining their code words to the public. There have been 1500 views of this confidential information and we all know that 200 of those are going to go straight to their non-pilot friends to tell them all about it. The hijackers of 9-11 had taken aviation 101 and knew about 7500, don't you think a more discrete secretive word such as "trip" would be useful? Now how about we keep it that way. Use some discretion and know when to discuss items in private. Moderator's do us all a favor and remove this topic!!
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supersnail
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.smartass wrote: In fact having this post on this forum is compromising national security and it should be removed. Do you see the CIA on a public forum explaining their code words to the public. There have been 1500 views of this confidential information and we all know that 200 of those are going to go straight to their non-pilot friends to tell them all about it. The hijackers of 9-11 had taken aviation 101 and knew about 7500, don't you think a more discrete secretive word such as "trip" would be useful? Now how about we keep it that way. Use some discretion and know when to discuss items in private. Moderator's do us all a favor and remove this topic!!
riggggghhhhhhhttttttt.
My 2 cents.
The word "trip" is not taught to everyone in C-172 ground school because there is no need to know it. This may sound snotty, but that is the way it is. Airlines have been using the word for over 20 years.
Squawking 7500 is known to every twit in the world, and once put on the transponder it sits there for all to see. Code words are quick. As I learned it, the word "trip" was chosen because it has to do with traveling, but no-one ever uses the word in normal communication.
Most airline flights (mine does) have to check in with their company every so often. The message is expected to be given then. Once notified, your airline gets the ball rolling. Airlines also have their own codes for indicating how many and what types of weapons they are using via landing light positions during taxi in. The tower guys don't even know them. The flaps down thing doesn't work very well because in slush, freezing conditions or with flap problems you leave the things down for maint.
My company has been hi-jacked twice in the past 15 years. The first time a person started shooting in the pax cabin. The crew squawked 7700 not 7500. ATC called back asking the nature of the emergency. (they DO NOT call back on a 7500) The first officer picked up the mic. to respond at the same time that the hi-jacker broke into the cockpit. The first officer was shot in the back of his head slumped forward and the aircraft was thrown into a steep dive. The captain recovered, landed and in the ensuing gun fight the hi-jacker was shot in the butt. ..............He later died of his wounds in hospital..................... Third world countries have certain cool rules of conduct.
Four years ago a 737-200 of ours was hi-jacked. It was a money flight carrying 1.5 million in cash in the baggage compartment of a pax flight. The group of 8 were very professional. Just after takeoff one of them entered the cockpit and handed the captain a portable GPS and told him to fly to a certain abandoned airstrip. They were instructed to not touch the transponder. The captain landed and they got away with the cash.
They clearly knew about the 7500 thing, that is why code words are needed.
These things can't be in the CARS because they are not regulatory, they are operational.
Before you all start dumping on me about sharing secrets, I have shared none, nor will I ever. This is just to make you aware that there is more to aviation than are in the CARS.
ps How many of you know that if you declare a hi-jacking, by whatever means and then declare an emergency, by whatever means, you are saying "The situation is desperate, require immediate armed intervention."?
The word "trip" is not taught to everyone in C-172 ground school because there is no need to know it. This may sound snotty, but that is the way it is. Airlines have been using the word for over 20 years.
Squawking 7500 is known to every twit in the world, and once put on the transponder it sits there for all to see. Code words are quick. As I learned it, the word "trip" was chosen because it has to do with traveling, but no-one ever uses the word in normal communication.
Most airline flights (mine does) have to check in with their company every so often. The message is expected to be given then. Once notified, your airline gets the ball rolling. Airlines also have their own codes for indicating how many and what types of weapons they are using via landing light positions during taxi in. The tower guys don't even know them. The flaps down thing doesn't work very well because in slush, freezing conditions or with flap problems you leave the things down for maint.
My company has been hi-jacked twice in the past 15 years. The first time a person started shooting in the pax cabin. The crew squawked 7700 not 7500. ATC called back asking the nature of the emergency. (they DO NOT call back on a 7500) The first officer picked up the mic. to respond at the same time that the hi-jacker broke into the cockpit. The first officer was shot in the back of his head slumped forward and the aircraft was thrown into a steep dive. The captain recovered, landed and in the ensuing gun fight the hi-jacker was shot in the butt. ..............He later died of his wounds in hospital..................... Third world countries have certain cool rules of conduct.
Four years ago a 737-200 of ours was hi-jacked. It was a money flight carrying 1.5 million in cash in the baggage compartment of a pax flight. The group of 8 were very professional. Just after takeoff one of them entered the cockpit and handed the captain a portable GPS and told him to fly to a certain abandoned airstrip. They were instructed to not touch the transponder. The captain landed and they got away with the cash.
They clearly knew about the 7500 thing, that is why code words are needed.
These things can't be in the CARS because they are not regulatory, they are operational.
Before you all start dumping on me about sharing secrets, I have shared none, nor will I ever. This is just to make you aware that there is more to aviation than are in the CARS.
ps How many of you know that if you declare a hi-jacking, by whatever means and then declare an emergency, by whatever means, you are saying "The situation is desperate, require immediate armed intervention."?
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Cat Driver
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Two more comments.
Part of this discussion concerns ATC allegedly threatening a pilot with a violation.....so because these code words are on a need to know basis, then us the great unwashed second class members of our illustrious profession can be threatened with enforcement on something that is kept secret from us?
Second:
The hi-jack dangers have changed since 911, we have a new breed of hi-jackers who will gladly die to accomplish their mission so knowing you are about to die anyhow why use code words?
Cat
Part of this discussion concerns ATC allegedly threatening a pilot with a violation.....so because these code words are on a need to know basis, then us the great unwashed second class members of our illustrious profession can be threatened with enforcement on something that is kept secret from us?
Second:
The hi-jack dangers have changed since 911, we have a new breed of hi-jackers who will gladly die to accomplish their mission so knowing you are about to die anyhow why use code words?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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control_man
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This thread has gone off on several different tangents of intelligence. Code words between ATC and air carriers and their respective dispatches DO exist and will continue to serve a function when required. It is just one more means of communication that the pilot has to alert those that can begin to coordinate a course of action. The immaturity on this thread is astounding. To make fun of an operational safeguard and make implications that it will just be said for sport can have serious consequences. If certain phrases are exchanged between ATC and pilot, confirmation of the ensuing threat can be interpreted by words exchanged by both parties. If you didn't know, you probably don't have to know, yet.
Maybe in the comm exchange which happened at the beginning of this thread was by accident and the controller interpreted it wrong by the manner and format it was said. I was actually working that day. Not in the sectors involved. I would truly like to know by the pilots involved if the Shift Manager actually threatened them with violation? If so, there is a break down in understanding. Shift managers haven't necessarily worked the boards any time recently, and generally power trip a little. You have every right to challenge his threat.
Bottom line is that these methods of comm. exist. Air carriers have particulars in their SOPs and ATC have particulars in our MANOPS. These kinds of comm. modes whatever they may be are taken VERY seriously. Certain measures and decisions are made before any tactical intervention would begin. Nonetheless, it does occur (more than you are ever aware of), and for the record it does work quite well.
I don't understand how some of you who may not know everything in aviation can make light of new knowledge? To dismiss something because you have never heard of it before is ludicris in any profession.
CONTROL_MAN
Maybe in the comm exchange which happened at the beginning of this thread was by accident and the controller interpreted it wrong by the manner and format it was said. I was actually working that day. Not in the sectors involved. I would truly like to know by the pilots involved if the Shift Manager actually threatened them with violation? If so, there is a break down in understanding. Shift managers haven't necessarily worked the boards any time recently, and generally power trip a little. You have every right to challenge his threat.
Bottom line is that these methods of comm. exist. Air carriers have particulars in their SOPs and ATC have particulars in our MANOPS. These kinds of comm. modes whatever they may be are taken VERY seriously. Certain measures and decisions are made before any tactical intervention would begin. Nonetheless, it does occur (more than you are ever aware of), and for the record it does work quite well.
I don't understand how some of you who may not know everything in aviation can make light of new knowledge? To dismiss something because you have never heard of it before is ludicris in any profession.
CONTROL_MAN
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Regruntled
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I knew I should have put a sarcasm disclaimer on my previous post! For the record Control Man I don't intend to deliberately cause a hijacking scare!! Sheesh!
Maybe there's a need for code words. Maybe these words need to be kept secret. Maybe if you want to keep these words secret, you don't disseminate them to EVERY pilot of EVERY aircraft in Canada. Maybe if not EVERY pilot knows these words, they might slip out every so often. And maybe, just maybe, if these words DO slip out, the controller can investigate further (in a subtle manner) to make sure everything's OK, then DROP IT!
To threaten someone with a violation for using a SECRET word that NOBODY but airline types are supposed to know has to be the most ignorant and stupid thing I've heard in recent times. Those of you belittling Bede for not knowing, and then asking about it can't have it both ways. Either everyone knows about it, even terrorists (like squawking 7500) and therefore can be expected to comply, or it's kept secret and some false alarms will occur.
For the record Control Man I don't intend to deliberately cause a hijacking scare!! Sheesh!Maybe there's a need for code words. Maybe these words need to be kept secret. Maybe if you want to keep these words secret, you don't disseminate them to EVERY pilot of EVERY aircraft in Canada. Maybe if not EVERY pilot knows these words, they might slip out every so often. And maybe, just maybe, if these words DO slip out, the controller can investigate further (in a subtle manner) to make sure everything's OK, then DROP IT!
To threaten someone with a violation for using a SECRET word that NOBODY but airline types are supposed to know has to be the most ignorant and stupid thing I've heard in recent times. Those of you belittling Bede for not knowing, and then asking about it can't have it both ways. Either everyone knows about it, even terrorists (like squawking 7500) and therefore can be expected to comply, or it's kept secret and some false alarms will occur.
It's easy to get the impression "Control Man" sees everything as a threat to his meagre authority. Even his name betrays it.
When the sun rises in the east, one must wonder if "Control Man" suspiciously views it as a potential threat to his authority?
Shot In The Dark: "Control Man" is under 5 foot 6.
When the sun rises in the east, one must wonder if "Control Man" suspiciously views it as a potential threat to his authority?
Shot In The Dark: "Control Man" is under 5 foot 6.
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Mitch Cronin
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I am sure that medivac flights have certain code words for ATC that I as an airline captain do not know about, nor even need to know about. I am sure that certain contract DoD flights do as well. I bet hospitals/cassinos and taxicabs also do as well. This is not James Bond stuff. It is very real.
I can't reasonably see ATC busting someone for unknowingly using it out of context. I can't really see ATC taking action on it from a non-airline flight when used in a non standard manner. I can see you getting met by a 7.62mm reception party if you play with it though.
On a personal note to Cat Driver.
We have both been in this business for a very long time. The vast majority of readers here are new to aviation. Neither you nor they are second class citizens of aviation. This is a serious topic, one of few on this forum. It is also a somewhat obscure topic. You do the new/young pilots on this forum however a disservice by making fun of such a serious topic. To be sure, some of the hi-jackers are willing to go out with a bang . Most are just wackos. For all types we need, and have in place, a system for dealing with them. A system which those who go on to airline work will learn in due time. Why only the airlines/regionals? Because that is where the hi-jackings take place.
With out meaning to sound pompous (though after proof reading this I must admit I do), may I sugest that we use our experiance to educate the lads and lasses a little on the ins and outs of the real world of aviation that they are so desperately trying to break in to without the bellyaching and sarcasm?
Your shot.
I can't reasonably see ATC busting someone for unknowingly using it out of context. I can't really see ATC taking action on it from a non-airline flight when used in a non standard manner. I can see you getting met by a 7.62mm reception party if you play with it though.
On a personal note to Cat Driver.
We have both been in this business for a very long time. The vast majority of readers here are new to aviation. Neither you nor they are second class citizens of aviation. This is a serious topic, one of few on this forum. It is also a somewhat obscure topic. You do the new/young pilots on this forum however a disservice by making fun of such a serious topic. To be sure, some of the hi-jackers are willing to go out with a bang . Most are just wackos. For all types we need, and have in place, a system for dealing with them. A system which those who go on to airline work will learn in due time. Why only the airlines/regionals? Because that is where the hi-jackings take place.
With out meaning to sound pompous (though after proof reading this I must admit I do), may I sugest that we use our experiance to educate the lads and lasses a little on the ins and outs of the real world of aviation that they are so desperately trying to break in to without the bellyaching and sarcasm?
Your shot.
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control_man
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Precisily what griffon said. The controller made an error. But, you guys went off on tangents with this thread like idiots. A mistake was made in judgement and discretion. I have not denied this. But don't make light of the fact that these methods of comm are used just because YOU the ALL KNOWING have never heard of it.
CONTROL_MAN
CONTROL_MAN
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supersnail
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You know, I didn't think people were saying that if they hadn't heard of it it did not exist, what I got out of it was that how the hell are you supposed to know about something that you had never been taught, and something that was not common knowledge. The arrogant replies from some on this board regarding how they learned it "in airline OPS" were imo the reason the thread got out of hand. Instead of saying "you know, I had never heard of it until I got to the heavy metal" would have been a bit more effective than telling people that they are a bunch of 'misfits from the bush'.control_man wrote: But don't make light of the fact that these methods of comm are used just because YOU the ALL KNOWING have never heard of it.
CONTROL_MAN
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Cat Driver
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TJ :
I have read my posts here and of course I could have made them less sarcastic and less confrontational.
However part of my attitude was generated by the origional poster saying he had been threatened with a violation.
To this point that still seems to be a fact.
I will not apoligize for feeling uncomfortable with the culture of " violation and enforcement " that has become so prevelant on the part of those who regulate and control us.
With threats comes a natural response from the threatened to go into the defensive mode.
Maybe you do not feel that way, so be it, but just because I have been around for a long time that does not mean that I can not disagree with the system once in a while.
If I come across as a bellyacher and a sarcastic member of this group, maybe its because I sometimes get annoyed by some of the comments coming from the airline end of the industry.
Anyhow thats my position and all this will dissapear into another internet crisis as soon as some other issue gets everyones attention.
P.S. :
I at least post using my real name, if nothing else the newbies will think, he might be opinionated and a whiner but the S.O.B. doesen't. hiding
Cat
I have read my posts here and of course I could have made them less sarcastic and less confrontational.
However part of my attitude was generated by the origional poster saying he had been threatened with a violation.
To this point that still seems to be a fact.
I will not apoligize for feeling uncomfortable with the culture of " violation and enforcement " that has become so prevelant on the part of those who regulate and control us.
With threats comes a natural response from the threatened to go into the defensive mode.
Maybe you do not feel that way, so be it, but just because I have been around for a long time that does not mean that I can not disagree with the system once in a while.
If I come across as a bellyacher and a sarcastic member of this group, maybe its because I sometimes get annoyed by some of the comments coming from the airline end of the industry.
Anyhow thats my position and all this will dissapear into another internet crisis as soon as some other issue gets everyones attention.
P.S. :
I at least post using my real name, if nothing else the newbies will think, he might be opinionated and a whiner but the S.O.B. doesen't. hiding
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Contol Man:
I suspect the reason many are making fun of code words is because a code word that is general enough that anyone who wants to find out about it can, but specific enough that people can get jumped on for using it without ever hearing about it smacks of the mass of security rules, most of them recent, that stop everyone except a terrorist. You may not have to deal with these rediculous attempts at making johnny public feel safe very often. We deal with them every day and must do so knowing that anyone who wants to circumvent them can do so.
I suspect the reason many are making fun of code words is because a code word that is general enough that anyone who wants to find out about it can, but specific enough that people can get jumped on for using it without ever hearing about it smacks of the mass of security rules, most of them recent, that stop everyone except a terrorist. You may not have to deal with these rediculous attempts at making johnny public feel safe very often. We deal with them every day and must do so knowing that anyone who wants to circumvent them can do so.
