Course change requires a clearance

[looproll]

so you actually notice the difference between going x direct to Y, and taking off x, turning towards y and pressing direct enter enter?

[twinpratts]

Big Sky Theory...
Definition: it's a big sky.

(Dude, you're suppossed to split the pills in half )

[60N30W]

CPL-ATC

Good points you present. As a practice I always inform the Center of exactly where I will go direct to if there exists a question.

For example in the middle of the night you are cleared direct Toronto, well I just inform them that I will go direct to the IF for 05, or a point on the arrival, never had any problems doing that. Kind of fun when you're with Fort Worth and they need the lat and long for where you want to go.

Regards,

60N30W

P.S for the guy who mentioned it being a big sky, I guess you have not read the initial report on the midair in Brazil.......that big sky was very small that day.

[Axial Flow]

Twin Pratts wrote:

Big Sky Theory...
Definition: it's a big sky.

I used to think that till I got TCAS and could see how many times I would be dead if I wasn't at the right altitude or when VFR traffic zooms past me and clears by 500 feet.


KLM MD11


UAL 757 we were VFR and were 500 feet apart and about a mile away.

[balls]

Anyone who holds an IFR rating should be well aware of the fact that any change to your course in controlled airspace requires a clearance. This applies equally to ANY change in course, be it to an approach waypoint at your destination, or to a different destination altogether.

An airport-to-airport clearance, common with GPS tracks, does not constitute clearance to fly to your choice of: A) the airport, B) a navaid close to the airport, or C) to any one of the potentially dozens of waypoints on a published approach to that airport.

As mentioned in another thread, it is clearly obvious to the controller when a radar-identified aircraft takes it upon themselves to make even a three or four degree turn away from their cleared route and towards an approach waypoint. [If controllers often use a five degree turn to solve a conflict, what makes you think that a self-initiated turn of the same amount will not *cause* a conflict?]

Further, changing course can have an impact on separation in both radar and non-radar airspace.

If you want to go to a different point, get a clearance to do so. If it does not have an impact on separation, there is no reason why your request will not be granted. If the request is denied, it is because there is a concern for separation.

This is happening far too often lately in NW Ont specifically. Changing course without a clearance is both unprofessional AND is a violation of the CARs.

ANY change is not an accurate comment.

[ZBB118.10]

A change in course necessary to ensure immediate safety of the flight perhaps?

Remember we are taught - Aviate, Navigate, Communicate in that order.

[Dust Devil]

I'm sorry you had a bad day

[ZBB118.10]

Don't bullshit me with splitting hairs here.

I wasn't. I was just giving a possible and reasonable suggestion to Ball's comment to which you asked a question.

Are you this professional at work too?

[Wasn't Me]

I hope your not one of those guys who gives me hell for being 2 miles of the center line of an airway when I've been cleared via the airway. Also if your betting my ass on a guy being dead on instead of plus or minus a few maybe it's time for some retraining on Manops and lateral seperation with regards to GPS track seperation and protected airspace. And maybe you've had a bad day.

[MCA]

i think CPL_aTC means that when you file, for example, ABC-> DEF-> GHI, and before being over ABC your proceed direct GHI without telling ATC, it shows pretty well on the radar, and we know you are bullshitting when you say you're on course toward ABC. also, deviating around weather usually doesn't bring you exactly on the path for the fifth waypoint on your route!

[Shady McSly]

ZBB118.10 Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A change in course necessary to ensure immediate safety of the flight perhaps?

Remember we are taught - Aviate, Navigate, Communicate in that order.

-Shut up nerd.

[Lurch]

Come on guys play nicely.

cpl_atc is just venting but unlike most of the vents on the forum this one holds a valid point. You may not like his tone but this is no reason to act like a bunch of children.

cpl_atc seems to be in a position to know what he is talking about and it isn't a rare occurrence. Pull your fingers out of your ears or other dark crevasses and actually learn something from this.

Lurch

[FamilyGuy]

Seems to me to be a reasonable "Heads up" to some people who are maybe getting a little lax....

If you don't want to heed the "freindly" reminder, perhaps some of you more enlightend folks would care to take it up TC enforcement. They have guys who are paid to debate minutea alllll day long....right after they fine your ass.

Your choice I suppose....

[Howitzer]

i understand what cpl_atc is saying, however, i've heard controllers clear me "direct calgary". Well calgary what, ndb, vor, airport? If i had a gps i could do all 3. What's the SOP for controllers giving a clearance to a position in something like that? Should they be saying exactly what calgary is? Just wondering.

[Smurfjet]

i understand what cpl_atc is saying, however, i've heard controllers clear me "direct calgary". Well calgary what, ndb, vor, airport? If i had a gps i could do all 3. What's the SOP for controllers giving a clearance to a position in something like that? Should they be saying exactly what calgary is? Just wondering.

They should be saying exactly where. For all you know it could be the Calgary mall. Thats sloppy RT.

[Jerricho]

i've heard controllers clear me "direct calgary". Well calgary what, ndb, vor, airport?

They certainly should be telling you exactly where you are cleared to, either airport, nav-aid or local booze shop (especially in instances like YQT where the VOR isn't co-located with the airfield).

[Beechball]

Actually, I was told by YYZ centre that when it comes to an initial route clearance or a re-route, they look at your equipment suffix. If you are RNAV and they clear you to "Calgary" they are directly referencing the airport co-ordinates. If your not RNAV equipped they will clear you to the primary NAVAID at the destination airport and they will state the appropriate NAVAID in question... Ex: "Calgary VOR".

In other words, if your RNAV equipped and you hear "Cleared to XXX" it's by default the airport. If you get "Cleared to XXX NDB" then it's the NDB (or other assorted NAVAId of course...

[invertedattitude]

CPL_ATC makes a valid point.

For you bigger bus drivers as well, if you're planning on off-setting for wake-turbulence, just ask ATC before you do it, yes we do notice when we see you turning, even just a mile off airway.

[airway]

Actually, I was told by YYZ centre that when it comes to an initial route clearance or a re-route, they look at your equipment suffix. If you are RNAV and they clear you to "Calgary" they are directly referencing the airport co-ordinates. If your not RNAV equipped they will clear you to the primary NAVAID at the destination airport and they will state the appropriate NAVAID in question... Ex: "Calgary VOR".

In other words, if your RNAV equipped and you hear "Cleared to XXX" it's by default the airport. If you get "Cleared to XXX NDB" then it's the NDB (or other assorted NAVAId of course...

All controllers may not do it the same way. You shold confirm where the controller wants you to go. See this thread.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... highlight=

[Wasn't Me]

As pilots flying IFR we must always have a clear understanding of what we are to do. In the last few years with the abvent of GPS direct routings have become more popular. Remember when some says " clearded to Calgary" it should be made clear as to what facility if they mean airport say airport or BCN or VOR but just "cleared to Calgary' is not complete without "Airport" in the phrase.

[ZBB118.10]

Shady McDick said...

-Shut up nerd.

[pointyertoes]

I for one heartily appreciate cpl_atc's input.
I'd rather suss out potential trouble spots here on the forum than get a request to call centre on landing (or getting a call from enforcement).

Thanks again for a professional post.

[Bookem Lou]

cpl_atc, regardless of whether I needed it or not, thanks for the advice. It's not often we hear from people behind the radar screen and it's this type of material that makes the forum valuable.

ZBB118.10, a while ago you wrote that we can all learn something at 250hrs or 25,000. You should heed your own advice.

[balls]

Hmm...seems pretty hard to please the cpl-atc guy. Sorry it's such a touchy subject, and appears hard to discuss without emotion. Why so?

SLOP. No clearance required.

Wxx deviation, a clearance is a nicety, not a requirement. I tell you what I'm doing, and we come to an agreement.

Emergency of any kind. I tell you.

ie, ETOPs engine fail off course, intercept the 15nm offset. Pressurization problem...

Etc, etc.

CPL_ATC, you made the the statement off an absolute. It just ain't so. There are cases when you will deviate and let the controller know the plan as soon as possible.

[Lurch]

Balls did you not read the entire post? If so go back and re-read it.

This has already been discussed. Cpt_atc isn't talking about the etc's. He is talking about everyday "NORMAL" operations. How many times a week do those etc's come into effect?

How often do you not have 20 seconds before you have to alter course? I am betting not that often, if so you should dig into why it keeps happening somebody is doing their job wrong.

Lurch