Ahramin
Your post only brings to light what I have said previously. If this is such a contentious subject and the code word is that unknown to people, take it as a learning experience, not a bastardizing narrative of inexperience.
Looking back from the original post I don't see anywhere that JJ stated that the controller threatened him with violation (correct me if I am wrong). The shift manager? yes. The controller jumped the gun here. The shift manager went too far in his remarks, that was ignorant. But look how many pilots are now aware of the term?!?
CONTROL_MAN
Using the word "Trip"
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
I'd have to respectfully disagree CM, it looks like the controller did exactly what he should. Pilot uses "trip" and he reported it to the Shift manager. Manager then did what ever it is they do. Threat of violation once on the ground, like I said - interesting - but doubtful it'd stick.
Again it shouldn't make any difference if its ACA or any other airplane, use that word and things happen. Even a hijacked Beaver could be dangerous.
IMHO if one sticks to standard RT this shouldn't happen - no matter what other little secret code words are out there unbeknownst to us. FWIW
Again it shouldn't make any difference if its ACA or any other airplane, use that word and things happen. Even a hijacked Beaver could be dangerous.
IMHO if one sticks to standard RT this shouldn't happen - no matter what other little secret code words are out there unbeknownst to us. FWIW
Man, this has been an entertaining thread. I have just a couple of comments though.
First, hearing about something from people in an anonymous forum is not actually "learning" anything. It is merely receiving information that may be true but just as easily may not. No one has credibility simply because they claim to. I don't personally know anyone, regardless of their hours or experience that vouches for this, so to me it remains only possible, not truth (both the threat from ATC and the code word thing itself).
Therefore, unless you can confirm the information from someone you know and can trust, or you can establish a strangers veracity, it remains only information. I'm certainly not gonig to rush into groundschool and start teaching people that this is fact.
Maybe if I ever decide to do something other than decimate legions of mosquitos around the patch I'll find out the truth, but till then this has certainly kept me laughing.
First, hearing about something from people in an anonymous forum is not actually "learning" anything. It is merely receiving information that may be true but just as easily may not. No one has credibility simply because they claim to. I don't personally know anyone, regardless of their hours or experience that vouches for this, so to me it remains only possible, not truth (both the threat from ATC and the code word thing itself).
Therefore, unless you can confirm the information from someone you know and can trust, or you can establish a strangers veracity, it remains only information. I'm certainly not gonig to rush into groundschool and start teaching people that this is fact.
Maybe if I ever decide to do something other than decimate legions of mosquitos around the patch I'll find out the truth, but till then this has certainly kept me laughing.
5x5, wow great attitude!
Why don't you call FSS and get the information from a reliable source ? So that you rush to groundschool and start doing your job accordingly.
You are right that you shouldn't take anything posted on an anonymus forum as truth... but it should trigger your curiosity.
With great instructors like you, I know why I never heard of the code word before.
Why don't you call FSS and get the information from a reliable source ? So that you rush to groundschool and start doing your job accordingly.
You are right that you shouldn't take anything posted on an anonymus forum as truth... but it should trigger your curiosity.
With great instructors like you, I know why I never heard of the code word before.
Family Guy,
I understand that you probably fly some heavy iron, and I don't nor ever will. We are probably on different pages because hijacking is something I never worry about. The controller was wrong because the word was not used as it is supposed to be (at the end of a transmission).
On a more general note, the problem with all these security measures is that people have lost all common sense. Putting shiny badges on security workers and having them confiscate "1 million items" such as vice grips, etc. is silly. Thinking that this will stop a hijacking is niave. Sometimes I ride my bike into work on a late night or early morning call out when the office isn't opened yet. I usually forget my keys at home. What do I do: hop over the barbed wire fence in about 3 seconds. Ta Da I'm on airside. If we really want to do something about security, perhaps without compromising civil liberties (ie racial profiling), we should tear a page out of El Al's security procedures. From what I've read, they're guys have a lot of psych training and by conducting random interviews can determine a security threat. When was the last time an El Al plane got hijacked?
Anyways, my two cents.
I understand that you probably fly some heavy iron, and I don't nor ever will. We are probably on different pages because hijacking is something I never worry about. The controller was wrong because the word was not used as it is supposed to be (at the end of a transmission).
On a more general note, the problem with all these security measures is that people have lost all common sense. Putting shiny badges on security workers and having them confiscate "1 million items" such as vice grips, etc. is silly. Thinking that this will stop a hijacking is niave. Sometimes I ride my bike into work on a late night or early morning call out when the office isn't opened yet. I usually forget my keys at home. What do I do: hop over the barbed wire fence in about 3 seconds. Ta Da I'm on airside. If we really want to do something about security, perhaps without compromising civil liberties (ie racial profiling), we should tear a page out of El Al's security procedures. From what I've read, they're guys have a lot of psych training and by conducting random interviews can determine a security threat. When was the last time an El Al plane got hijacked?
Anyways, my two cents.
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Bcn-In-Bnd
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Family Guy,
AND the rest of you of you know-it-alls
The reason us BUSH MISFITS dont know about this code word is because WE DO NOT NEED TO. I say again WE DO NOT NEED TO.
Now that I know what I know, it all makes sense, as to why I and alot of other pilots out there did NOT hear about this.
If I understand this correctly.
Simply using the word TRIP in a conversation on the radio dos not mean there is a theat aboard your a/c.
One more thing, IMHO this code word should not bo talked about in any ground school until (and only when) you are in a ground school for an AIRLINER position. ie AC,WJ,CANJET,JG.
....and I said I was done with this, oh well. (Now I am a know-it-all)
AND the rest of you of you know-it-alls
The reason us BUSH MISFITS dont know about this code word is because WE DO NOT NEED TO. I say again WE DO NOT NEED TO.
Now that I know what I know, it all makes sense, as to why I and alot of other pilots out there did NOT hear about this.
If I understand this correctly.
Simply using the word TRIP in a conversation on the radio dos not mean there is a theat aboard your a/c.
One more thing, IMHO this code word should not bo talked about in any ground school until (and only when) you are in a ground school for an AIRLINER position. ie AC,WJ,CANJET,JG.
....and I said I was done with this, oh well. (Now I am a know-it-all)
Peace,Love and Granola.
Benwa,
I didn't think I was displaying a bad attitude. I was merely making the point that, on a forum, the information you receive is unvalidated and therefore not "the truth". You're absolutely right that it does stir curiousity and that's why I said that I had checked with the contacts I have (albeit none with an airline at this time) and couldn't find anyone to substantiate it. I am not going to talk to FSS or Nav Canada or anyone else as it's not that important to me.
As for being a good instructor, I focus my time on making sure that the items, knowledge and skills that are required by my students now and in the forseeable future are provided. The things they need to know now are the things I take time to chase down. A special part of the SOPs when you're flying for a large airline is unfortunately not an immediate concern for them (although most everyone of them would like it to be )
I'm sure there are lots more very interesting procedures, policies and skills that will apply as they progress through their careers and they will learn them as they need. This isn't the time in my opinion.
I didn't think I was displaying a bad attitude. I was merely making the point that, on a forum, the information you receive is unvalidated and therefore not "the truth". You're absolutely right that it does stir curiousity and that's why I said that I had checked with the contacts I have (albeit none with an airline at this time) and couldn't find anyone to substantiate it. I am not going to talk to FSS or Nav Canada or anyone else as it's not that important to me.
As for being a good instructor, I focus my time on making sure that the items, knowledge and skills that are required by my students now and in the forseeable future are provided. The things they need to know now are the things I take time to chase down. A special part of the SOPs when you're flying for a large airline is unfortunately not an immediate concern for them (although most everyone of them would like it to be
)I'm sure there are lots more very interesting procedures, policies and skills that will apply as they progress through their careers and they will learn them as they need. This isn't the time in my opinion.
“Our company SOP's use the word 'trip' in cabin-cockpit communications to signal that there is a hijacking on board.”
Standard Operating Procedures. Developed by your company for your company. Different in each company.
“It is not in the legal papers (some people have them in their SOP but you could put whatever you want in your SOP)”
Exactly.
“I know it appears in some COMs”
Company Operations Manual. Created by your company for your company. Different in each company. Not usually allowed out of the company. Didn’t an Air Canada Employee wind up on charges last year for trying to sell a COM on Ebay?
A330 – “What a bunch of misfits on this website.......most of you have no clue.”
Nice attitude. Sorry the rest of us were not familiar with Your COM. I will wait to see it in print so I can properly apply this knowledge.
A330 – “The word has existed and remains however widely known it might be.”
Apparently, not too well known at all. Been in the industry for years, never heard of it. If this many pilots don’t know about this, the next question is, how many controllers do not know this little tidbit. That would make it none too effective. If it exists outside of COM’s, please provide a location where I can properly educate myself.
Standard Operating Procedures. Developed by your company for your company. Different in each company.
“It is not in the legal papers (some people have them in their SOP but you could put whatever you want in your SOP)”
Exactly.
“I know it appears in some COMs”
Company Operations Manual. Created by your company for your company. Different in each company. Not usually allowed out of the company. Didn’t an Air Canada Employee wind up on charges last year for trying to sell a COM on Ebay?
A330 – “What a bunch of misfits on this website.......most of you have no clue.”
Nice attitude. Sorry the rest of us were not familiar with Your COM. I will wait to see it in print so I can properly apply this knowledge.
A330 – “The word has existed and remains however widely known it might be.”
Apparently, not too well known at all. Been in the industry for years, never heard of it. If this many pilots don’t know about this, the next question is, how many controllers do not know this little tidbit. That would make it none too effective. If it exists outside of COM’s, please provide a location where I can properly educate myself.
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
Not that it matters, but... I knew about it 
Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart
- Amelia Earhart
the word 'trip' is supposed to be used in the ident, ie. "westjet three twenty four trip" and the controller is expected to repeat the same thing. "id like to talk about this TRIP" or whatever was said earlier, is not proper use, BUT if i received that call, YOU NEVER KNOW. So the controller doesnt really have a choice but to tell the shift manager, because its not ratting you out or anything, its just what you do when a hijack happens. Because imagine the controller assumes ' oh well, he probably just does want to talk about the trip' and he actually was trying to communicate that there was a hijack in effect, then the shit hits the fan. whos going to be in trouble with TC?
- the answer would be --- the controller for not giving any assistance to the aircraft in distress.
- the answer would be --- the controller for not giving any assistance to the aircraft in distress.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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Yup.. it's busy right now, right in the middle of bug run. Have three turbines and a couple helo's running, wanna come help?
Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart
- Amelia Earhart
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
I'd love to, but I have to leave tomorrow for Amsterdam to fly one of those boring PBY's.
But hey when I was in DiJon a few weeks ago the stearman was still sitting in the hangar and I told Franklin to get a new engine in it so I can fly it.
What would you rather fly just for fun, a Stearman or the turbine ?
I still think about doing loops in the stearman when the morning spraying was finished on nice warm summer days all those many years ago.
Cat
But hey when I was in DiJon a few weeks ago the stearman was still sitting in the hangar and I told Franklin to get a new engine in it so I can fly it.
What would you rather fly just for fun, a Stearman or the turbine ?
I still think about doing loops in the stearman when the morning spraying was finished on nice warm summer days all those many years ago.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
In 1984 I was a flight instructor at Springbank. A tower controller buddy of mine and I were doing what comes most naturally to airport people, pounding them back and talking about plane stuff. He told me then about the "trip" thing. ...1984.... Up until then I had never heard about it. He even told me not to go spreading it around.
If it has been around for AT LEAST 20 years, then I garantee the bad guys know about it. It is however, very quick and somewhat "stealthy" to get out on the radio - therefore useful.
Like I said earlier, there are other ways to get the word out. Most are company specific.
Not to belittle my northern colleagues, but there is little need for this type of information to be disseminated among non airline/regional operators. It is not that the airlines are better than you, you just don't need to know it yet.
Nor is there any need to learn chime codes from the cabin to the cockpit, self defense in the cabin, weapons training(USA), landing light position codes nor specific flight profiles for a hi-jacking situation for a C-172. You may very well be tought it if you opt to go the airline way.
I have always thought that EVERYONE should be taught how to regain control of your aircraft if a passenger goes nuts and grabs the controls though.
The airline that I work for in Brazil uses 2 training films for this topic. One about hi-jacking was made by Canadian Pacific, the other (about Bombs, searching your oun aircraft in flight and where to put the device when found) by Transport Canada. They were very well made films.
The information is out there but is on a need to know basis. Yeah, I know that sucks. It is cool to know everything. What can you do...?
Saying something "secret" though, innocently on the radio and then being threatened with a violation seems a bit much.
If it has been around for AT LEAST 20 years, then I garantee the bad guys know about it. It is however, very quick and somewhat "stealthy" to get out on the radio - therefore useful.
Like I said earlier, there are other ways to get the word out. Most are company specific.
Not to belittle my northern colleagues, but there is little need for this type of information to be disseminated among non airline/regional operators. It is not that the airlines are better than you, you just don't need to know it yet.
Nor is there any need to learn chime codes from the cabin to the cockpit, self defense in the cabin, weapons training(USA), landing light position codes nor specific flight profiles for a hi-jacking situation for a C-172. You may very well be tought it if you opt to go the airline way.
I have always thought that EVERYONE should be taught how to regain control of your aircraft if a passenger goes nuts and grabs the controls though.
The airline that I work for in Brazil uses 2 training films for this topic. One about hi-jacking was made by Canadian Pacific, the other (about Bombs, searching your oun aircraft in flight and where to put the device when found) by Transport Canada. They were very well made films.
The information is out there but is on a need to know basis. Yeah, I know that sucks. It is cool to know everything. What can you do...?
Saying something "secret" though, innocently on the radio and then being threatened with a violation seems a bit much.
Considering I've never flown a Stearman (although my old buddy from YZF promised to take me up but never did.. 
) I'd have to say, for fun, I'd try the Stearman. I can fly a turbine any day lol
) I'd have to say, for fun, I'd try the Stearman. I can fly a turbine any day lol Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart
- Amelia Earhart
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lilfssister
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I go to work for a day or two (or ten?), and come back to find this! I see OPS amendments coming for a lot of people.
Last edited by lilfssister on Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sis - that'll teach ya! LOL...
Kinda like being the boss, eh?
Kinda like being the boss, eh?
Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart
- Amelia Earhart
