Any Suggestions....

[Naveed]

I was hoping to get some opinions or suggestions on what to do...I'm about a week into the instructors course and recently interviewed for a ramp position with a f/o chance within the usual times...so i guess do I stay the course and instruct or should i work the ramp for the f/o, any suggestions?

[KAG]

Depends on a few factors...
how long till you can hold right seat? What kind of equipment do they have? Can you become a CPT there with no PIC time? How many hours a year will you fly?

If you can a hold a right seat within a year, have a deverse equpiment from small stuff to twinn turbines, can eventually go CPT, fly a decent amout of hours a year, then I'd say go for it.

[Doc]

Sorry KAG, somebody's got to do it.......If you're looking at a year, or more...I'd instruct. Then, there's the question of a job as an instructor. Is there one waiting at the end of your training? It ain't a cheap way to go, but if there's a job in it for you, a year down the road, right or wrong, you'll have about 800 hours PIC...and that's the bottom line.

[Dash-Ate]

Instruct: it builds leadership skills. Invaluable.

[ski_bum]

If you have an instructing gig lined up once your done take that, even if you don't the amount of job ads for instructors I have seen you shouldn't have a problem finding work right away. Instructing is fun, you get to fly everyday, meet great people, and it can be a tonne of fun.

Ramp work can be pretty fun as well, the only downside is you bust your butt only to get to see the plane taxi off with out you in it, unless you get a crewman job where you get to ride along. Ramp waits can change, they may tell you 12 months it could turn out to be 18 but then again it could be 6 months.

I instructed while friends worked the ramp, now we are all flying turbine twins as FO's the only difference is I have 900 hours PIC, it both took us a year or so to get the right seat job. I don't know how much a skid of pop weights, but I do know how to fuel, tow and load planes which many rampy's think instructors don't know.

My 2 Cents

[planett]

Ten years after leaving instructing, I still remember the stigma attatched to it and how I was denied job opportunities beacause of it. It eventually led to Multi IFR instructing, then bag runs, then charters (SPIFR), then bigger and better stuff in the north. But for five or six years now, the number of training opportunities and extra cash I have made as a result of this experience is astounding.

I don't know what proportion is innate ability and what has been honed by instructing, but it sure has served me well since I left the ab initio business. Now I do IFR refreshers, large aircraft groundschools, PPC training, line indoc, etc. This is outside my full time flying job. I may use 30 or 40 days off a year doing this work and make as much there as in my first year as a full time instructor. My primary employer knows this and wants me to do this kind of work for them in the future. One thing leads to another.

Instructing, which almost ruined me financially and mentally a decade ago, has given me a good pay raise and something to do on whichever days off I choose to use. Stigma turned marketable skill.

[DGuy]

Try to avoid instructing. Getting operational multi/ir experience is more advantageous. I love it when 2-500hr pilots with very little multi time and or no IR experience are teaching others to fly. Instructing should be a well paid position requiring experienced pilots .

[Hedley]

Instructing should be a well paid position requiring experienced pilots

Sure, I don't think you will find anyone willing to argue that, but unfortunately reality is somewhat at odds with your (and my) utopian ideals.

It should be obvious that when you don't have much time in your logbook, any day that you can log some time (esp PIC, handy for that ATPL down the road) is better than a day that you don't log any time.

[Fline@9]

If you have the opportunity to teach... consider it seriously. Those that pass on it miss a right of passage in my opinion.

How it changes you as a pilot and a person is immeasurable. I fly with captains and FO's who skipped the instructing route. I see it in their IFR skills. Perhaps they never got that chance to learn all those finesse things you will instructing IFR.

As for being taught by high timers being better then someone with say 500 hours dual given... I don't buy it. A good instructor is a good instructor- period. I've also found students that had good instructors were more likely to get their instructor ratings and teach then those with bad instructors. I remember when I was at 600 hours dual given I had a perfect pass ratio. It wasnt till I got to around 1500 or so that I was handed my first problem child. Yes, he failed. My only one. Bad instruction? No. Weak student? A little. You do what you can and then you try a little harder.

IMHO... Take the instructing gig if you truly care about making someone as good/better than you at the controls. If you're just looking for numbers in a logbook, do yourself and all of aviation a favour and go hump cargo up in the bush.

Good luck.

[Fline@9]

D Guy said : "Instructing should be a well paid position requiring experienced pilots ."

What planet did you learn to fly on? Incidentally you made mention of 500 hour pilots... so what then in your humble opinion is the cutoff for what we should consider someone as being experienced enough to teach?

Please enlighten us?

[Johnny]

I was hoping to get some opinions or suggestions on what to do...I'm about a week into the instructors course and recently interviewed for a ramp position with a f/o chance within the usual times...so i guess do I stay the course and instruct or should i work the ramp for the f/o, any suggestions?

Are you able to do both? While working the ramp, are you able to schedule your flying students around your ramp shifts without compromising your commitment to the flying company or the school/students?

If so, I would say do it. The leadership experience and PIC time you would gain while instructing is valuable towards any career down the road (as mentioned by others above). Any $$ you will spend on your instructor rating, if not recovered through teaching by the time you start flying with the 703/704 operation, could be seen as an investment in your captain career progression and your resume as the PIC hours (or the opportunity to get them) will expedite your left seat upgrade and/or ATPLs.

Also, it will help to keep you current and help avoid ramp rot, IMHO.

Good luck.

[Naveed]

I have been always leaning towards instructing, the financial prospect of not having to shell out 7000 more dollars was really the only influence, but i had such a great instructor that made almost all of my flights fun and didnt destroy me when flights went wrong, like i witness with some others, if i could be half the instructor he was i think id not only have much more fun instructing than doing the ramp, but id also hope to pass on my experiences to the next generation as it were

[LiL'Cracky]

Take the ramp job, no money in instructing, trust me, been there.

[Fline@9]

good advice Cracky... the future is generally brighter for ramp rats then it is for pilots.

Instructors that dont make money are generally faced with one of two problems. They are either faced with a bad economy, or a low volume airport.

Do your due diligence before taking any job in aviation. Talk to the people that are doing the job and see how things really are. Decide for yourself only then if thats the place where you want to work.

Or, you could always heed Cracky's advice and pump gas and watch all the other aircraft taxing out for PIC time while you daydream about it.

I digress... those old 100LL trucks sure do look fun to drive. You even get to talk to the tower like a real pilot. You never know... with some patience and seniority you might even get the upgrade call and you'll be at the controls of the JET-A truck in no time!!!!!!!!!

[Odysseus]

I worked the ramp while getting my license, and I had to make the same decision as you when I finished my CPL. Theres two reasons I didn't do my instructors rating: one, didn't have enough money pilled up to finish it off fast; and two, I got hired as an FO a month after getting my license. The guys I did my CPL with who chose the instructor route are still in the classroom, flying with the class 1 about once a week (if the weathers good) while I fly turbo-props every day.

If the time on the ramp is low and the equipment is good go for the ramp job, spend the winter working hard and it will pay off in the spring time.

[bob sacamano]

Do what you think is best for you.

5 years down the road, you can look back and see if the other option MIGHT have been better.

You'll hear both horror and cinderella stories from both camps.

You'll never know the answer of this question young lad.

[2R]

The stigma is a Canadian thing .Mostly associated with the puppy mills
The quasi college where you do not get either a good degree or learn how to fly an airplane with the degree of proficiency that promotes employment upon graduation.Sufficient only to pass a glorified private pilot ride.

The majors like to see the CFI CFII on a resume in the States.

And not all time is valuable some pilots who fly for some operators are not welcome at the majors.An example would be a company whose culture promotes the breaking of rules as part of the job would find little movement from their ranks into the majors.After all why would you trust an airplane full of your customers to a criminal.The US ATPL requires that the applicant be of good moral character as per 61.153(c)

[bob sacamano]

And not all time is valuable some pilots who fly for some operators are not welcome at the majors.An example would be a company whose culture promotes the breaking of rules as part of the job would find little movement from their ranks into the majors.After all why would you trust an airplane full of your customers to a criminal.The US ATPL requires that the applicant be of good moral character as per 61.153(c)

This is something that I thought about before taking jobs, how will this look on the resume.

From the experience that I've seen, many of co-workers who were with shaddy companies, moved on to the majors. Many have gotten their time, clean record, and have moved on to better positions, on bigger airplanes, and bigger and more respectable companies.

At the end of the day, you can't paint a picture of someone by just looking at the name of the company where they worked. If you are a respectable company, you would give the candidate a chance, based on the credentials, and make your decision then.

Now if this said candidate comes from a shaddy company and has a bad safety record, then sure, don't hire them, however, if they have good experience, and did not fly recklessly and played by the rules, they could be an asset to the majors.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the PIC. Why do we all go after the pic time? because it means something. If you decide to take shit from owners and break the rules, then it's you're to blame, not the company.

My thoughts on the subject anyways. Hope I'm right

[Fline@9]

Odysseus... if you got a right seat job "by" working on the ramp then you're in the top .0001 percentile of pilots that get that chance with little/no time. I know rampies that work their butts off, and I know lazy slobs. I'wouldn't hire either simply beacsue they are friendly and like to talk about planes or because they pumped gas into our Falcons... I'd hire them based on real world requirements. Which means if the insurance can't cover them because they don't meet PIC time requirements then bye bye baby. I don't care how good of a guy you are. PIC time is PIC time and the quickest/cheapest way to it is the bush or instructing.

Can you honestly tell someone in good conscience "yeah work the ramp, take your chances?" Come on....

[2R]

Outisde of the physics laboratory they are very few absolutes.
The are many paths to fulfillment in aviation some smooth and some bumpy.
It is a good time to be starting any career as the prospects are good for whichever path chosen .Those path's are getting shorter today and long may that continue .As I have travelled the other longer path and i am quite happy to see professional people rise rapidly.
It does not matter what path you choose if you are good at what you do you will be successfull.
How you work and how you do the simple tasks will either open or close the doors of opportunity .Wax-on Wax-off
No matter what you do in aviation the key to success is no matter how bad your day is please do not whine .Nobody wants to sit in a small confined space with a whinner.I have flown with all kinds of peolple and can tolerate smelly ,stupid ,slow ,even the arrogant (few of them in aviation)but i have little patience for whinners.If you whine you will find yourself emptying honey pots for a long time or very short of students if you go the other way.
We all have to start somewhere it is what you do with the opportunites that present themselves.
capadeum

[Odysseus]

Odysseus... if you got a right seat job "by" working on the ramp then you're in the top .0001 percentile of pilots that get that chance with little/no time.

Thanks I'll take that as a compliment I guess. Maybe I got lucky, but I worked hard on the ramp and I know I wouldn't have the job I have now if I hadn't.

It would be unrealistic for you guys to hire off the ramp if you're flying around in Falcons, but many companies hire rampies or dispatchers with under 300hrs of flight time on planes like King Airs, PC 12s and metroliners. After a while, once the FO has enough hours/experience they get the upgrade to captain.

I've seen both the good and the bad of both instructing and working the ramp and I chose accordingly. Here in Quebec I know most companies are reluctant to hire instructors, I've seen guys with over 1500hrs of instruction trying and failing to find the FO job I have now. Even if the flight school also has a charter department, the upgrade is slow and most instructors end up waiting much longer than if they had left and tried to find a job out west.

Hiring low-timers as FOs has its drawbacks and advantages. Maybe the insurance premiums are a little higher but at least you'll be able to keep the low timers longer than an instructor who's looking to get some quick multi or turbine hours.

[Fline@9]

FO jobs are fine, but SIC time SIC time. PIC time is what you need to get to captain. All but one of my friends that tried using SIC time to get a better job got their PFO letters quickly.

I still say PIC time is more valuable then anything

[wallypilot]

why not get your instructor rating while working the ramp? perfect combo.

[Crazed Windscreen]

Wally Pilot how simple was that and no one saw it.

If I had to do it over I would have put more thought into instructing rather than the bush.

If you aspire to any kind of training department, the fact that you are familiar with a training syllabus works is in your favour.

[Fline@9]

Crazed... amazing how hindsight always does end up 20/20 eh? Interesting point you made about future aspirations. I know I've had several opportunities come to me that I know I would not have had if I didn't have my backround teaching at Flightsafety (no not the simulator division either fellas)