KA 200 off runway in Grise Fiord

50'minimums · Post by **50'minimums** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:03 pm

I heard that a KA200 went off the runway in Grise Fiord. I hope there were no injuries, can anyone shine some light on what happened.

RFN · Post by **RFN** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:02 pm

Maybe I'm just a huge pussy, but Grise Fiord is a pretty short runway (1950ft). Yeah if it's cold and you are light then maybe...
How light could you be? Where are the nearest alternates?
I hope everybody is ok.

bigsky · Post by **bigsky** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:10 pm

RFN wrote:Maybe I'm just a huge pussy, but Grise Fiord is a pretty short runway (1950ft). Yeah if it's cold and you are light then maybe...
How light could you be? Where are the nearest alternates?

A few pics

http://www.flickr.com/photos/northernpix/214713556/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/northernpix/214713300/

Who's 200 was it?

bigsky · Post by **bigsky** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:25 pm

RFN wrote:Maybe I'm just a huge pussy, but Grise Fiord is a pretty short runway (1950ft). Yeah if it's cold and you are light then maybe...
How light could you be? Where are the nearest alternates?
I hope everybody is ok.

Just a little more information for the city slickers

At 76º 24 ' N, Grise Fiord is Canada’s most northerly community. It is situated on the southern coast of Ellesmere Island, overlooking Jones Sound. The community rests at the foot of 600 m high mountains, 1,544 km from the North Pole. At this latitude, the midnight sun of summer, from April through August, means that days end only when your energy goes. The period of 24 hour a day light is appropriately referred to as “light season”. By September, some darkness returns to the high arctic night, increasing until the end of October, when darkness prevails throughout the day (“dark season”). The sun makes it eagerly awaited reappearance on the ninth, tenth or eleventh of February.

Only operators with considerable experience should use this aerodrome at all. It is a short one way strip with a curved approach path, normally only used by Twin Otters. If landing is not assured by the red overshoot bars then overshoot immediately - left climbing turn to 187T. PAPI lights are aimed 15 degrees right of runway.

Caution high terrain all around.

Snowgoose · Post by **Snowgoose** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:29 pm

Not many -200's that operate up there. Air Nunavut or Keewatin are the two that come to mind. Borek only has -100's. Correct me if I'm wrong.

LiL'Cracky · Post by **LiL'Cracky** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:59 pm

According to the charts the only king air 200 that can go into that strip legally is one with a catpass 250 conversion. I know for sure that air nunavut has a catpass king air, I don't think keewatin has one with the conversion but I could be wrong.

http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/02 ... rm2_03.htm

Howitzer · Post by **Howitzer** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:26 pm

Borek has 4 -200's, and one is based in YFB as a medivac machine. To my knowledge, if there was a pick-up required out of Grise, the 200 would fly to YRB, and hold, while the Twin Otter would go to Grise and back, no Beech machines allowed into Grise.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:37 pm

What kind of mods are done for the catpass conversion?

Looks like quite the interesting approach and strip. My only concern would be engine loss on a missed...

How big is the community there?

Alex YCV · Post by **Alex YCV** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:47 pm

Wow, that looks to be many miles north of the middle of nowhere.

nightguy · Post by **nightguy** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:11 pm

Well hate to say it but I think those guys at air baffoon have been rolling the dice for too long. Leave it to the Otter. I can tell you there is a reason Borek does not run any kind of king airs into that place. Guess that is what happens when you push pilots by paying by the mile. Most of the time I don't comment on any of this stuff but this is just too much. I have spent 2 years watching some of those 200's doing some stupid shit. I don't blame the pilots as much as the owner. What a wesel! Time to start treating your pilots a bit better and maybe ditch some of the loosers that work there. Man if I hear Air baffin 2 billion making one more needless traffic call I think I will shoot myself. Lets act like pros here and start standing up for ourselves.

Scuba_Steve · Post by **Scuba_Steve** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:33 pm

Well I cannot comment on Grise fjord or Air Baffin, or even this accident (lets see more details). But I can comment on the 200, I can put it down in a short space (1500 feet or less if needed) but that leaves zero margin for error, hell WHY would you do it? My former company wanted me to bring a 200 into a 2500 foot strip and I was none too keen on that even. With my old Gov job they had a min of 3500 feet and I think 3000 is my personal min (yeah I'm sure some bush rats are calling me a pussy now

)

Cheers

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:34 pm

Air Nunavut operates their 200's into Grice Fjord....

ettw · Post by **ettw** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:47 pm

OK, here it goes...

I worked at one of the operators mentioned above and went into Grise with the 200 once. I did the charts and the 200 was tripped out with the enhanced performance leading edges (inboard and relevent), ram air recovery (but not relevent in this case), and 4 bladed props (very relevent). For the day that I went in I was light (required) and, on paper, only needed 1400 feet. In reality I was off in about 1500 feet or so. All in all it was a non event. I think the kits installed do make a difference in the performance of the aircraft, enough of one to permit operations in and out of Grise.

Is it wise to do so on a regular basis, I'll leave that question alone.

I'll pose these questions: with respect to performance charts, what is a responsible operator to do if the charts say that it can be done? What would be an acceptable percentage to increase the distances by to ensure safety?

Cheers,

ETTW

Man if I hear Air baffin 2 billion making one more needless traffic call I think I will shoot myself.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:08 pm

I've done a grise medevac, and as Howitzer said, we sat at the YRB crew shack eating a well prepared meal while the Otter took the murse to pick up the patient. That was in the "dark" season as you called it.

There's only one operator on Baffin Island who sends 200's into 2000' gravel runways, and let's just say I'd never fly as a pax with them.

That's "inside" the hangar, note that nobody removed their winter gear as it's still -20 in there. We still kept the engine tents on and the heaters plugged in.

There's the otter that did the medevac for us.

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:55 pm

I worked there and saw 3 airplanes written off within 4 years. As far as this accident, it could have been mechanical. I think your takeoff charts are not relevant for Grise Fiord as it is not a hard surfaced runway. As long as the government continues to bail these companies out, they will be able top pay whatever insurance premiums are charged and will never close. If Transport could ever send an investigator undercover there for a month, I think that would be the end of them. Glad no one was hurt.

bigsky · Post by **bigsky** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:59 pm

Anonymous1 wrote:I worked there and saw 3 airplanes written off within 4 years. As far as this accident, it could have been mechanical. I think your takeoff charts are not relevant for Grise Fiord as it is not a hard surfaced runway. As long as the government continues to bail these companies out, they will be able top pay whatever insurance premiums are charged and will never close. If Transport could ever send an investigator undercover there for a month, I think that would be the end of them. Glad no one was hurt.

We seem to be getting ahead of ourselves.
I don't think we know it was Air Nunavut.

and

How do we know there were no injuries? Did I miss a post?

Juggs · Post by **Juggs** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:07 pm

PAO did your medevac!?

Nice, I flew that airplane down in Haiti before its current time at Borek.

bigsky · Post by **bigsky** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:02 pm

Finished another day out west. Thought the Nor-East boys would have filled us in on the details of this event.

Anybody? Must some factual info out there.

3=47 · Post by **3=47** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:35 am

just to narrow it down a bit on which company it was, keewatin does not go into griese with the 200, and only a couple times a year at the most in the PC-12

bamboo · Post by **bamboo** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:02 am

I would rather go in YGZ with a four bladed raisebeck BE20 than a PC12 anyday.

ettw · Post by **ettw** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:25 pm

I'll pose these questions: with respect to performance charts, what is a responsible operator to do if the charts say that it can be done? What would be an acceptable percentage to increase the distances by to ensure safety?

No comments?!

ETTW

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:06 pm

ettw wrote: I'll pose these questions: with respect to performance charts, what is a responsible operator to do if the charts say that it can be done? What would be an acceptable percentage to increase the distances by to ensure safety?

Based on some other threads here, I'd say the correct response is 'read the AFM, the AFM is gospel, you cant POSSIBLY know better than the engineers that designed it'. If the charts say go, then you go. Isn't this the same question as 'takeoff with 172 on floats using 20 degrees of flap' ? My oh my how the 'experts' ragged on me on that one, so, if indeed the 'experts' are correct, and the AFM is gospel, then you add exactly 0% to the figures it produces.

You cant have it both ways kiddies, either the AFM is gospel, or, experience with the machine allows one to 'change the rules' based on that experience. I know what _I_ would do, but, then again, i'll select flaps 20 for a 172 on floats too. Quite a few KA drivers sure got thier tits in a tangle over that, so, I'd feel quite happy dispatching them to any strip the AFM says the airplane is capable of operating on. After all, the AFM is gospel, and, it's says the airplane is quite capable of operating out of there....

Oh wait, now the shoe is on the other foot. Are those 'AFM is gospel' types suddenly going to turn into scared little pussies, and start playing the 'safety' card now that it's convenient?

But, thats ok, we all know what co-jo will do. Shut up, sit on hands, serve coffee in the back, like a good little co-jo

(sorry, couldn't resist )

185/310 · Post by **185/310** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:50 pm

I use to fly a king air 200 into some smaller strips, 2500 ft was normally the smallest, but 2100 ft was done a few times, and that was pretty much at max weight, however, like you guys said, its not smart, and I would question doing it again. The King Air is a great machine, but dont push it.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:54 pm

Been there, (in a Hawker) and don't miss it....at all!

flyingt · Post by **flyingt** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:42 pm

bamboo wrote:I would rather go in YGZ with a four bladed raisebeck BE20 than a PC12 anyday.

Are ya freaken kidding me???

Never flown a PC-12 i guess.