Want a pay raise? I have an idea.....

avray · Post by **avray** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:22 pm

It seems to me, after flying this racket for 10 years now, that aviation is driven by stupidity. Here's my example: Everyone knows that there is a labor shortage in Canada, especially in AB. So when companies can't keep their employees, or get labourers, the wages go up. HOWEVER when there is a pilot shortage.... what happens? Companies make pilots sign training bonds. And we sign them, myself included. (Yes, we're our own worst enemy)

So, in light of that, here's a possible solution. Start job hunting for jobs that you don't want but can get. Apply for advertised jobs that you would more than likely be hired for (or at least on their short list) If and when they phone you, make it sound like your interested but you would like to know the wage/benefits/schedule before you spend (your own) money to travel for the interview.
Now here's the catch - When they tell you the wage, automatically tell them that their wage is too low and don't think it's in your interest to move, but thanks anyway. If EVERY pilot did this five times EVERY month, it might make a difference. Any thoughts or comments?

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:25 pm

That's the best idea I've heard all day long!

Flying Low · Post by **Flying Low** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:12 pm

Pilots working together for the betterment of our industry??? And I thought I was a dreamer!

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:36 pm

Meh, never work, too many sluts out there. It would be easier to just refuse the bond, but nobody does.

The other problem is pilots are conditioned to making ramp and instructor wages, so an extra bag of peanuts tossed their way is a HUGE bonus.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:52 pm

No no, he's talking about guys with stable jobs that they don't want to leave doing it just to give employers the impression that they need to up their compensation. Nice idea until your current employer gets wind that you've been talking to every other airline in the country about employment opportunities. Theoretically one could even do it with fake names, hours, and everything; then there would be nothing to lose. It would royally piss off a LOT of CP's and HR people though... I wonder how they'd adjust the hiring system to handle it?

adhc2 · Post by **adhc2** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:16 pm

It happened for me last year had 6 offers and had to pass them up as I had accepted another. Never the less I did play poker with some of them.
Two of them admitted that they dilly dallied and regreted not being more assertive, some of them upped the anty. Being a float guy last year was a good place to be and the wage increases offered to me were suprising. It is a supply and demand driven situation and if you have enough experience asking in advance about wages and benefits is not unreasonable. If you have good references to back up enough experience than you are able to deal from a position of strength. Lets hope the trend continues.

FREEFALL · Post by **FREEFALL** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:30 pm

xsbank wrote:The other problem is pilots are conditioned to making ramp and instructor wages, so an extra bag of peanuts tossed their way is a HUGE bonus.

LMFAO

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:25 pm

xsbank wrote:
The other problem is pilots are conditioned to making ramp and instructor wages, so an extra bag of peanuts tossed their way is a HUGE bonus.

I'll never work for peanuts.

I have been known to work for Timbits once in a while though.

N2 · Post by N2 » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:46 pm

Trying to get pilots to stand together is like having the fat kid guard the cookie jar...

bigsky · Post by **bigsky** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:19 pm

N2 wrote:Trying to get pilots to stand together is like having the fat kid guard the cookie jar...

True. But there is a solution.
Form a general pilot UNION..yes UNION.

If every new pilot started out in the union, because it paid him/her a good wage and ensured equity, I am sure the membership would swell.
Operators would have no choice, other than to pay the going rate.

Sooner or later the oldtimers will move on or retire, and all that will be left are pilots that started in "the UNION"

The concept really is not that hard to put together. In fact, there are many existing UNION'S that would welcome a stronger membership.
I am not talking about ALPA or CALPA.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:28 pm

The only job I didn't negotiate a wage for was my first one(instructing). Every time after that I have proposed a wage and negotiated from there. Just like any normal industry. Mind you, all you folks in the charter industry i guess don't have as much leverage. The charter/small airline industry seems to be brutal. You folks really do need an association of some sort. I have never seen any other industry where salaries are so undervalued.

avray · Post by **avray** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:10 pm

Well, I think I'm going to try doing it for a while. I plan to apply to 5 jobs month or so and tell each one of them that I may consider accepting if the pay was higher. If my boss finds out, it certainly won't hurt to have him think that despite being locked into a training bond, I'm still looking for higher wages. If you like the idea, then pass it along, otherwise, you may as well keep doing nothing and bithc about it.

adhc2 · Post by **adhc2** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:44 pm

Gettin a raise ain,t rocket science, although it helps a lot if u deserve one.
Its certainly is tougher if u don,t have much experience. You can make up for experience by showing work ethic though. Worst thing your boss can do is say no so don,t be shy ask. I did once they said no even after I suggested that I had a better offer. So I took the better offer and they
tried to get me back with a way better deal, I gotta say it felt better than a raise to turn them down.

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:20 am

xsbank wrote:The other problem is pilots are conditioned to making ramp and instructor wages, so an extra bag of peanuts tossed their way is a HUGE bonus.

Its true...heck on sunday I got a free meal...it was like christmas

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:22 am

bigsky wrote:
N2 wrote:Trying to get pilots to stand together is like having the fat kid guard the cookie jar...
True. But there is a solution.
Form a general pilot UNION..yes UNION.

If every new pilot started out in the union, because it paid him/her a good wage and ensured equity, I am sure the membership would swell.
Operators would have no choice, other than to pay the going rate.

Sooner or later the oldtimers will move on or retire, and all that will be left are pilots that started in "the UNION"

The concept really is not that hard to put together. In fact, there are many existing UNION'S that would welcome a stronger membership.
I am not talking about ALPA or CALPA.

I suggest'd something like that about a year ago & it was shot down prety hard by people here

748 ho · Post by **748 ho** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:41 am

men listen good you wanna make little more scratch!!!!!!!THEN LISTEN UP ALL YOU BROOOM FLYIN SHITTER CLEANER PPC BUYIN PUSSEYS !!!!!!! TELLEM TO STICK IT UP THERE ASS I DID!!!! LIKE I PAY 40K TO TRAIN TO DRIVE A FORKLIFT AND WIPE UP CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM PILOT!!!!!! TAKE THAT BOND SHOVE UP YOUR ASS !!!!!! TAKE YOUR EARNNNNIN YOUR DUES BULLSHIT WORK THE RAMP CRAP AND LAUGH RIGHT ATTEM!!!!!!!!!I AINT DOIN THAT CRAP BUDDY!!!!!!!YAHHHHH YOU ALL DID THAT MEN AND THERE WERE NOT SO MANY PUSSEYS AND BITCHES THAT CALL THEMSELFS PILOTS !!!!!!! GET RID OF THAT CRAP MEN THEN WE WOULD ALL BE PPPPHATTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!YAHHHHHH MEN!!!!!!

MAG1 · Post by **MAG1** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:41 am

Is it possible to have a union without the company and create some legislation whereas the companies are required to hire pilots from this union. Iron workers are like that, maybe all unions are like that. Trouble is some companies just won't hire union workers. How do you make it necessary. Make it a safety issue or something. Make every pilot out of commercial school join. No choice.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:52 am

Something like that is publicly hugely unpopular and will never get legislated (nor should it IMO). Unions exist for the benefit of their members, not to serve the public interest. Organizations that do that are called Professional Associations, and in order to practice as a Lawyer or Engineer in this country, you have to be a member of your respective association. A Professional Association would be a good political lobby for pilots, and could improve safety by leaning on shady operators. A professional association could in theory even result in higher wages indirectly, but if you try to form a group that every pilot is forced to join whose sole purpose is improving pilot benefits, the public will scream blue murder.

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:25 am

Lommer wrote:Something like that is publicly hugely unpopular and will never get legislated (nor should it IMO). Unions exist for the benefit of their members, not to serve the public interest. Organizations that do that are called Professional Associations, and in order to practice as a Lawyer or Engineer in this country, you have to be a member of your respective association. A Professional Association would be a good political lobby for pilots, and could improve safety by leaning on shady operators. A professional association could in theory even result in higher wages indirectly, but if you try to form a group that every pilot is forced to join whose sole purpose is improving pilot benefits, the public will scream blue murder.

thats what I had suggest'd...& then companies would have to meet various standards to be list'd by the association as repreble ect.

B-rad · Post by **B-rad** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:02 pm

N2 · Post by N2 » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:16 pm

748 ho wrote:men listen good you wanna make little more scratch!!!!!!!THEN LISTEN UP ALL YOU BROOOM FLYIN SHITTER CLEANER PPC BUYIN PUSSEYS !!!!!!! TELLEM TO STICK IT UP THERE ASS I DID!!!! LIKE I PAY 40K TO TRAIN TO DRIVE A FORKLIFT AND WIPE UP CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM PILOT!!!!!! TAKE THAT BOND SHOVE UP YOUR ASS !!!!!! TAKE YOUR EARNNNNIN YOUR DUES BULLSHIT WORK THE RAMP CRAP AND LAUGH RIGHT ATTEM!!!!!!!!!I AINT DOIN THAT CRAP BUDDY!!!!!!!YAHHHHH YOU ALL DID THAT MEN AND THERE WERE NOT SO MANY PUSSEYS AND BITCHES THAT CALL THEMSELFS PILOTS !!!!!!! GET RID OF THAT CRAP MEN THEN WE WOULD ALL BE PPPPHATTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!YAHHHHHH MEN!!!!!!

I did just that ho (well not in those words but to effect I put more value on myself than cleaning crappers)and guess what....I never ever did get a job flying!

Lots of guys talk the talk but when it comes down to it they would lick anyones ass to get a job flying!

B-rad · Post by **B-rad** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:23 pm

bigsky · Post by **bigsky** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:58 pm

Justwannafly wrote:
Lommer wrote:Something like that is publicly hugely unpopular and will never get legislated (nor should it IMO). Unions exist for the benefit of their members, not to serve the public interest. Organizations that do that are called Professional Associations, and in order to practice as a Lawyer or Engineer in this country, you have to be a member of your respective association. A Professional Association would be a good political lobby for pilots, and could improve safety by leaning on shady operators. A professional association could in theory even result in higher wages indirectly, but if you try to form a group that every pilot is forced to join whose sole purpose is improving pilot benefits, the public will scream blue murder.
thats what I had suggest'd...& then companies would have to meet various standards to be list'd by the association as repreble ect.

Perhaps "UNION" is the wrong term, I was thinking more along the lines. of what you have described above. A Professional Association. It would benefit this industry immensely.

adhc2 · Post by **adhc2** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:34 pm

The concept of a union is a good one, unfortunately the execution is entirely another matter. I would speculate that the low end and bottom feeder operators would not really be affected as there will always be those who take whatever they can get for the opportunity to fly. To undertake such a mammoth endeavor I believe would be destined to failure. With the diversity of types & styles of operations the logistics of implimenting an equitable and effective union require more than solidarity
and good intentions.
No doubt about it there would be significant resistance and much hue & cry
from operators as they are already under a lot of pressure from the ever increasing limitations that they are saddled with. There are many among us pilots who are skeptical like me at how effective unions can be, given the less than glowing track records of so many unions. Like polititions many unions start out with the best of intentions, but by and large they seem to loose sight of their mission to protect the best interests of rank and file.

x-wind · Post by **x-wind** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:57 pm

Maybe, TC could get involved with making the union mandatory. Everyone that gets or has a CPL has to belong to the union. With the exception of ATPL holders since they are always in need it seems.

Contrails and all that other crap should be against the law as well. TC should set the standards, not some consultant company. That and greed are why are insurance rates (along with 911) are stupidly high. Operators have a huge cost involved in training anyone new, so they make us sign training bonds and pay us barely anything.

Just my 2 cents. (which took me a while to earn)

Want a pay raise? I have an idea.....

Want a pay raise? I have an idea.....

Re: Want a pay raise? I have an idea.....