Deicing with the engines running......
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Mitch Cronin
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- Location: Right beside my dog again...
I'm not sure I believe I'm about to do this, but.... I find myself inclined to agree with Cap'n sourjuice here... to some extent at least.
He's absolutely right that you shouldn't need to wait for a "documented incident" before you decide something is unsafe. And he's right that there are all kinds of ways to get bitten with this practice... Extreme care is required by all participants, and if that level of care isn't probable, then the damned engines should just be shut down.
The notion that "turbine engines don't like to be shut down" is horse plop! They're machines for pete sakes! If their continued operation is putting people at risk unnecessarily, .... one more start won't be the end of them.
That said, if there is *proper training, I'm pretty sure it can be done safely....
* "Proper training" would NOT include the self-study-on-a-computer-followed-by-multiple-guess-exam that some sad sack air carriers pawn off as "training"!
He's absolutely right that you shouldn't need to wait for a "documented incident" before you decide something is unsafe. And he's right that there are all kinds of ways to get bitten with this practice... Extreme care is required by all participants, and if that level of care isn't probable, then the damned engines should just be shut down.
The notion that "turbine engines don't like to be shut down" is horse plop! They're machines for pete sakes! If their continued operation is putting people at risk unnecessarily, .... one more start won't be the end of them.
That said, if there is *proper training, I'm pretty sure it can be done safely....
* "Proper training" would NOT include the self-study-on-a-computer-followed-by-multiple-guess-exam that some sad sack air carriers pawn off as "training"!
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/gener ... /zones.htm
And....
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... C0072r.htm
I dont see Garretts listed there. Its just not safe. At Ground Idle they Np 70% thats 1400 RPM.
I wonder if their SMS system is aware of this (If they have one)
And....
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... C0072r.htm
I dont see Garretts listed there. Its just not safe. At Ground Idle they Np 70% thats 1400 RPM.
I wonder if their SMS system is aware of this (If they have one)
Knowing is half the battle
de-icing technician training is very in depth. Of course there are risks involved but they are calculated.
Going into an ice covered 3000ft strip at night in a snowstorm down to minimums with a strong xwind in a big twin turbine is a calculated risk as well.
It is legal but can be dangerous.
So if you compare that to your arguements about deicing with engines running being dangerous and should be stopped before someone gets killed, you might also would like TC to not let people shoot an approach to minimums if the rwy is short, icy in a xwind and snowing outside.
Look- aviation has it's risks and sometimes airlines care more about being efficient.
You can go around making statements that everything is dangerous if you want. But you won't change anything because money talks and if you think that de-icing with the engine running is the most dangerous practice going on, well you obviously haven't been in this business for very long.
In my opinion, weather is the most dangerous factor in aviation. maybe we should stop flying whenever it's cloudy or windy? Wx has killed many pilots, why do we keep doing it?
See where I'm going with that?
Going into an ice covered 3000ft strip at night in a snowstorm down to minimums with a strong xwind in a big twin turbine is a calculated risk as well.
It is legal but can be dangerous.
So if you compare that to your arguements about deicing with engines running being dangerous and should be stopped before someone gets killed, you might also would like TC to not let people shoot an approach to minimums if the rwy is short, icy in a xwind and snowing outside.
Look- aviation has it's risks and sometimes airlines care more about being efficient.
You can go around making statements that everything is dangerous if you want. But you won't change anything because money talks and if you think that de-icing with the engine running is the most dangerous practice going on, well you obviously haven't been in this business for very long.
In my opinion, weather is the most dangerous factor in aviation. maybe we should stop flying whenever it's cloudy or windy? Wx has killed many pilots, why do we keep doing it?
See where I'm going with that?
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Sub-Space Canoodler
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In my opinion, with the proper equipment, training, AND COMMUNICATION between aircraft and de-icing folks, engines running may be acceptable. If you are going to be de-icing anywhere that these conditions are not met, shut down! Don't take the risk. Additionally, pilots, when de-icing is complete, get out and inspect your aircraft. I cannot believe the number of crews that will take off without a quick inspection.
Be safe!
Be safe!
I am a work in progress...be patient.
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the_professor
- Rank (9)
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During certification, the GE90 was tested for water injestion simulating 24in/hr, or "once per 100yr" rainstorm. The engine didn't die.Troubleshot wrote:777 engines are rated to with stand alot more than a deicing truck could throw at it ...make that 4 deice trucks...one guy could never kill it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi8qVTFCTVI
I can't say I've ever seen a turbo prop deiced with the engines turning, and I find it hard to believe that Jazz' SOPs and SMS allow it. It does seem to be an accident waiting to happen to me. I could see ( when holdover time is critical) de-iciing the left wing and starting that engine when the de-ice crw is clear and so on. This assumes that you are on a ramp where the crew is trained to your procedures and can be relied on to do things in the same order every time. I also don't think it's unreasonable to question the practice and I don't see any reason to berate any person for doing so. My 2 cents.
bronson - you can be in a hurry or you can be in an airplane, but don't ever get into both at once
Troubleshot:
That's the magic of mass airflow, shaping and containing the flame so that the hottest part never touches the material of the hot section when it's running up to speed. The exposed surfaces also have air passages through them to keep them cooler than the surraounding gasses.
These peak temps would be similar in all manufacturers hot sections, while the EGT, TGT, ITT, T5 etc is measured in a place where the thermocouples will have a long life. So 500 EGT behind the third T wheel represents 2200 in the hottest part of the engine. Using Spinal Tap's analogy of volume control, turning it up to eleven doesn't say how many decibels you are producing, just how close you are to the max.
I'll admit I was surprised when I first heard about De icing with engines running.
That's the magic of mass airflow, shaping and containing the flame so that the hottest part never touches the material of the hot section when it's running up to speed. The exposed surfaces also have air passages through them to keep them cooler than the surraounding gasses.
These peak temps would be similar in all manufacturers hot sections, while the EGT, TGT, ITT, T5 etc is measured in a place where the thermocouples will have a long life. So 500 EGT behind the third T wheel represents 2200 in the hottest part of the engine. Using Spinal Tap's analogy of volume control, turning it up to eleven doesn't say how many decibels you are producing, just how close you are to the max.
I'll admit I was surprised when I first heard about De icing with engines running.
Bad things happen to me all the time. Take last week for instance; I only won a free ticket in the Super 7 rather than the jackpot....you arent one of those "it has to happen first to happen again" people are you...your job in life is to assume the worst case scenario. Just because it may not have been documented before doesnt mean its not a hazard. Like I typed before, if theres a way to bite the dust then some one will. Look at all the interesting ways you can eat it in aviation...let me guess..bad things never happen to you.
I assume the worst will happen and operate accordingly. However, "the sky is falling" theory gets me depressed.
Since this issue is obviously a major concern for you I think you need to act. Get off avcanada as an anonymous poster and get down to TC with all your concerns and see what you can do. Good luck.
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Swamp Donkey
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http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/gener ... orange.htm
Anyone who relies on a holdover time for Type I fluid is nuts. It’s great for removing frozen contaminants but is very ineffective as an anti ice fluid in anything but the lightest precipitation
Anyone who relies on a holdover time for Type I fluid is nuts. It’s great for removing frozen contaminants but is very ineffective as an anti ice fluid in anything but the lightest precipitation
Knowing is half the battle
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2milefinal
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hamstandard
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"It is understood that there are aircraft types for which de-icing/anti-icing with the main engines running is not advisable."
I would think a Herc would fall in this category or anything with Allison 501's. Electra, Convair. Try walking behind on with engines at idle.
The circular also says "It must be emphasized that the above-noted procedures are to be used only if they have been approved by the manufacturer."
I would think a Herc would fall in this category or anything with Allison 501's. Electra, Convair. Try walking behind on with engines at idle.
The circular also says "It must be emphasized that the above-noted procedures are to be used only if they have been approved by the manufacturer."
De-icing with the engines running.
The company I refer to has been operating in the worst possible icing
area for many years and currently operates 20 plus Dash 8`s in Scandinavia.
The aircraft do not have APU`s and run multiple leg scheduled passenger flights.
It is necessary to keep an engine running during de-icing for two reasons:
1. Passenger comfort-light and heat.
2. Keep delay to a minimum-the electrical services can remain active during the de-icing process.
The company has developed a system over the years which seems to cover most of the safety objections expressed on this post, as follows;
1. Comprehensive training and refresher of ground crews.
2. Communication at all times between the flight crew and the ground crew.
3. One engine shutdown at the ground crew`s
request-that side de-iced.
4. Engine re-started at the ground crew`s request.
5. Second engine shut down at the ground crew`s request-that side de-iced.
6. Engine re-started at the ground crew`s request.
7. Ground crew reports de-icing completed and ground crew clear.
8. Flight crew completes relevant check list and obtains taxi clearance.
The other part of the system is that the actual de-icing crew are inside the truck or on the cherry picker at all times during the procedure.
It seems to work-they haven`t lost anybody -yet.
area for many years and currently operates 20 plus Dash 8`s in Scandinavia.
The aircraft do not have APU`s and run multiple leg scheduled passenger flights.
It is necessary to keep an engine running during de-icing for two reasons:
1. Passenger comfort-light and heat.
2. Keep delay to a minimum-the electrical services can remain active during the de-icing process.
The company has developed a system over the years which seems to cover most of the safety objections expressed on this post, as follows;
1. Comprehensive training and refresher of ground crews.
2. Communication at all times between the flight crew and the ground crew.
3. One engine shutdown at the ground crew`s
request-that side de-iced.
4. Engine re-started at the ground crew`s request.
5. Second engine shut down at the ground crew`s request-that side de-iced.
6. Engine re-started at the ground crew`s request.
7. Ground crew reports de-icing completed and ground crew clear.
8. Flight crew completes relevant check list and obtains taxi clearance.
The other part of the system is that the actual de-icing crew are inside the truck or on the cherry picker at all times during the procedure.
It seems to work-they haven`t lost anybody -yet.
Esse quam videre.
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The Hammer
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