LOU 66 has been ratified by the pilot group which among other things, allows 150 new hires to start directly on the A320.
Will this mean nothing but A320 courses for the next while?
What do you guys think?
Disco
All A320 Courses for awhile??
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
Short answer....yes...320 courses galore.
Long Answer....The pilots who voted in favour of the LET sold out your long term future and have now enshrined B scale wages in the contract forever. So you might as well at least get an A-320 endorsement out of it before the company is on the CCAA ropes again in 2009 and find yourself out of a job completely.
Long Answer....The pilots who voted in favour of the LET sold out your long term future and have now enshrined B scale wages in the contract forever. So you might as well at least get an A-320 endorsement out of it before the company is on the CCAA ropes again in 2009 and find yourself out of a job completely.
I think it sucks.......
Air Canada pilots aren't united...bottom line..everyone is looking after number one...
the company is getting cheap 320 Fo....I wonder if we will beat a record..lowest paid A320 FO? 37 k must be a world record?
i cannot wait for the company to put 37k/yr pilot right seat on the 67....then wait for the guys to bitch...
Good for the guys who will be taking RP positions and make over 100k a year doing nothing while this should be an entry/junior position...while a new hired doing the same job will make 37k...that is really going to help in splitting the pilot group.
that 's what I think.
Air Canada pilots aren't united...bottom line..everyone is looking after number one...
the company is getting cheap 320 Fo....I wonder if we will beat a record..lowest paid A320 FO? 37 k must be a world record?
i cannot wait for the company to put 37k/yr pilot right seat on the 67....then wait for the guys to bitch...
Good for the guys who will be taking RP positions and make over 100k a year doing nothing while this should be an entry/junior position...while a new hired doing the same job will make 37k...that is really going to help in splitting the pilot group.
that 's what I think.
I agree disco, there are sure to be many 320 courses for the foreseeable future. I don't think that it's the only type of course new hires will see though...
Keep in mind that since the last bid, there have been 100+ pilots hired and assigned to RP and embraer positions, who will have their first chance to bid on a new position later this month. Now that LOU 66 has passed, I'm sure we'll see at least a few of these new hire pilots bid out of the position group onto the 320. This should mean new hires will probably have a mix of different positions to choose from, including RP and embraer, but only once they start to fill some of the short term airbus crewing vacancies. For at least the next few months I'm sure we'll be seeing nothing but 320 courses.
my 0.02
HG
Keep in mind that since the last bid, there have been 100+ pilots hired and assigned to RP and embraer positions, who will have their first chance to bid on a new position later this month. Now that LOU 66 has passed, I'm sure we'll see at least a few of these new hire pilots bid out of the position group onto the 320. This should mean new hires will probably have a mix of different positions to choose from, including RP and embraer, but only once they start to fill some of the short term airbus crewing vacancies. For at least the next few months I'm sure we'll be seeing nothing but 320 courses.
my 0.02
HG
Sorry if I sound dumb, but I have a couple questions. Won't the new hires that get the A320 be out of the Position Pay? I have a friend who got hired back in Feb I think, and he bid for (and holds) an EMB Capt spot, and he said he would be out of the position pay because left seat EMB was not part of that whole deal. Or is it only those like my friend that can hold left seat who are exempt from the position pay, and those who get right seat A320 are still stuck there? Again, I apologize if I sound ignorant, but I have no AC background and this stuff is all new to me, just trying to wrap my head around it. Thanks!
EC
EC
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Jeremy Kent
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- Location: Guelph, ON
El Comat
Correct...After 2 years on flat salary all new hires placed on the 320 will be on formula pay, because they will not be in the position group. The only pilot positions that form the "position group" are embraer FOs and all RPs.
Those pilots currently flying as RPs and embraer FOs will remain in the position group until they bid out of their current positions (i.e. onto the 320). That is unless they were on the seniority list prior to CCAA, in which case they will be removed from the position group per the provisions of LOU 66, which I believe is what started this thread.
Clear as mud, eh?
HG
Correct...After 2 years on flat salary all new hires placed on the 320 will be on formula pay, because they will not be in the position group. The only pilot positions that form the "position group" are embraer FOs and all RPs.
Those pilots currently flying as RPs and embraer FOs will remain in the position group until they bid out of their current positions (i.e. onto the 320). That is unless they were on the seniority list prior to CCAA, in which case they will be removed from the position group per the provisions of LOU 66, which I believe is what started this thread.
Clear as mud, eh?
HG
even before the Lou was a go ahead new guys were assigned and started their training on the 320, a couple of class worth.
So we should see a few new hired direct entry.
the 06-02 bid is coming out next week, so this will be a chance for pilots to jump seat. After that...new hired will be assign to where the company wants them, most likely 320 as I don t see the 150 positions on the 320 being filled right away.
I guess it is good news for someone who has a big dream to come from a prop to fly a 320 at AC, the embarassment is just the pay. Incharge and some rampie make more money...just trowing bags..
So we should see a few new hired direct entry.
the 06-02 bid is coming out next week, so this will be a chance for pilots to jump seat. After that...new hired will be assign to where the company wants them, most likely 320 as I don t see the 150 positions on the 320 being filled right away.
I guess it is good news for someone who has a big dream to come from a prop to fly a 320 at AC, the embarassment is just the pay. Incharge and some rampie make more money...just trowing bags..
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wallypilot
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Nightflight
- Rank 4
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Two more years added to the many years of pain one has to endure to get to this point is nothing considering that you have come to the destination of your arduous journey. Short term pain for long term gain is exactly what it is. Also the joyous buzz you will experience after ending up on the bus at AC should easily keep you going for the two years. All the best to those that have made it and please don't forget where and how you all started. Cheers!!!
Yes you will enjoy the reserve on the bus...
just be aware that some have been on reserve for years...if that suits your lifestyle then sign in.
bid is out 120 positions on the 320. i am sure out of 120 some will hold blocks...
reserve on the bus means flying... unless you are up the list.
good luck to you all in getting your number.
merry X mas.
just be aware that some have been on reserve for years...if that suits your lifestyle then sign in.
bid is out 120 positions on the 320. i am sure out of 120 some will hold blocks...
reserve on the bus means flying... unless you are up the list.
good luck to you all in getting your number.
merry X mas.
So let me get this straight, and please by all means correct me if I am wrong.
ACPA has negotioted with the Airline to allow 150 new hires on the Airbus on PG and a pay raise of less than core inflation over the next three years. Is this not a reduction of pay in real terms? Why is the union allowing this to happen? Is it time for the new pilots in the airline to kick the old guard out, put differences a side and get on with it?
Comments?
ACPA has negotioted with the Airline to allow 150 new hires on the Airbus on PG and a pay raise of less than core inflation over the next three years. Is this not a reduction of pay in real terms? Why is the union allowing this to happen? Is it time for the new pilots in the airline to kick the old guard out, put differences a side and get on with it?
Comments?
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tonysoprano
- Rank 10
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- Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:01 pm
New hires are on flat pay for two years. Always been that way. Many pilots use to go directly onto the 320, on flat pay. This is nothing new at AC. Not sure what the big surprise is. A reduction in pay? Not quite sure how. You are quite well aware what the salary is when you sign on. It's part of being on probation. Pretty standard practice in N. America. In essence we have returned to the way it was prior to CCAA. After flat pay, you get a hefty increase in pay. It's the company's way of recovering some training costs and the fact that they can get rid of you without ACPA intervention during that probation period. Flat pay is very low I agree. But I think it's well worth it for most people. Most young pilots who want to stay in Canada and fly nice equipment, ie widebodies, are usually quite willing to put up with the short term pain. The system outside of N. America is usually more rewarding, but for most people, not worth leaving home for.
Tony,
I think you misunderstood my point.
Point one being the ability for the company to allow new hires on the PG on the A320 is a clear reduction in terms and conditions compared to A320 pilots in other carriers. Air Canada has won a battle here and no doubt will be back for more if they choose to do so.
Point two being the recent pay deal your union has negotiated. They have awarded AC pilots a pay rise of 1.8% a year for the next three years. Is this true first of all? If it is then you are losing as inflation is clearly higher than 1.8% and has been for quite some time. Did you guys get RPI plus 1.8% or just 1.8%? If it’s the first I say well done but if it is the latter, AC is screwing you guys again. FIGHT BACK!!!!
I did not enter this thread to debate the choices people have for leaving to greener pastures. I can assure you though, in passing most people I run in to given the choices especially in Europe, would go tomorrow. Problem is most can’t. Lets not forget as well that getting a job at AC is not an easy thing to do. Enough on that one.
I think you misunderstood my point.
Point one being the ability for the company to allow new hires on the PG on the A320 is a clear reduction in terms and conditions compared to A320 pilots in other carriers. Air Canada has won a battle here and no doubt will be back for more if they choose to do so.
Point two being the recent pay deal your union has negotiated. They have awarded AC pilots a pay rise of 1.8% a year for the next three years. Is this true first of all? If it is then you are losing as inflation is clearly higher than 1.8% and has been for quite some time. Did you guys get RPI plus 1.8% or just 1.8%? If it’s the first I say well done but if it is the latter, AC is screwing you guys again. FIGHT BACK!!!!
I did not enter this thread to debate the choices people have for leaving to greener pastures. I can assure you though, in passing most people I run in to given the choices especially in Europe, would go tomorrow. Problem is most can’t. Lets not forget as well that getting a job at AC is not an easy thing to do. Enough on that one.
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tonysoprano
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RB.
When you say "other carriers" who are you refering to? We are the only 320 non-lcc operator in Canada. Again, please don't make the comparison with Europe because that is irrelevant for most of us as attractive as it would be to go there. Do European carriers not have a probation pay? Do they hire direct onto A320? As things go here in Canada, I think we are pretty much in line with this country, all-be-it substandard to the rest of the world. Check out what our cousins down south start at. Even worse. With regards to the pay, it was decided by an arbitrator, not ACPA, not AC, to give us 5.5% over the next two years.
When you say "other carriers" who are you refering to? We are the only 320 non-lcc operator in Canada. Again, please don't make the comparison with Europe because that is irrelevant for most of us as attractive as it would be to go there. Do European carriers not have a probation pay? Do they hire direct onto A320? As things go here in Canada, I think we are pretty much in line with this country, all-be-it substandard to the rest of the world. Check out what our cousins down south start at. Even worse. With regards to the pay, it was decided by an arbitrator, not ACPA, not AC, to give us 5.5% over the next two years.
Dude. I respect what you are saying. That being said your reply hit the dart board, but not anywhere near the bulls eye.
To answer your questions my carrier hires on all fleets depending on requirements experience and we do not have probation pay. This is irrelevant though, and it was you who brought it up.
The starting salary for an FO on the A320 at AC (New hires) compared to other aircraft of its size in Canada, is now considerably lower. Comparing to US carriers is not fair as they all living on the edge of existence. Your pay raise was 5.5% over two years you say but according to the link below, looks like 1.8% over three years backdated to the summer. This my friend is below inflation however you want to spin it.
http://...blogspot.com/
I am making this point for one simple reason. Arbitrator or not the airline is getting the best of its pilots and you guys need to dig in and fight back. You can sit there and portray the "I am alright Jack' attitude or start kicking some ass. Get the old boys out who are fighting with themselves, the airline and anyone else who they see fit. Your unity as a work force suffers resulting in poor results.
Not trying to pick a fight mate, just pointing out reality and hoping the new generation of pilots at AC can put an end to it.
To answer your questions my carrier hires on all fleets depending on requirements experience and we do not have probation pay. This is irrelevant though, and it was you who brought it up.
The starting salary for an FO on the A320 at AC (New hires) compared to other aircraft of its size in Canada, is now considerably lower. Comparing to US carriers is not fair as they all living on the edge of existence. Your pay raise was 5.5% over two years you say but according to the link below, looks like 1.8% over three years backdated to the summer. This my friend is below inflation however you want to spin it.
http://...blogspot.com/
I am making this point for one simple reason. Arbitrator or not the airline is getting the best of its pilots and you guys need to dig in and fight back. You can sit there and portray the "I am alright Jack' attitude or start kicking some ass. Get the old boys out who are fighting with themselves, the airline and anyone else who they see fit. Your unity as a work force suffers resulting in poor results.
Not trying to pick a fight mate, just pointing out reality and hoping the new generation of pilots at AC can put an end to it.
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tonysoprano
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- Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:01 pm
RB.
Pay raise schedule:
July 01, 2006 2.0%
July 01, 2007 1.75%
July 01, 2008 1.75%
This is from the arbitrator's final report.
I totally agree that we need to start kicking some ass if we want to get back to the world standard of lifestyle we use to have. But by and large that will depend alot on how "bad" we think we have it and what we're willing to do about it. It seems it's always easier for management to take away than for them to give back. Our 320 people took the biggest hit because they were being compared to WJ. Now that WJ salaries have gone up, management doesn't compare us anymore. ACPA tried but the arbitrator didn't buy it.
Pay raise schedule:
July 01, 2006 2.0%
July 01, 2007 1.75%
July 01, 2008 1.75%
This is from the arbitrator's final report.
I totally agree that we need to start kicking some ass if we want to get back to the world standard of lifestyle we use to have. But by and large that will depend alot on how "bad" we think we have it and what we're willing to do about it. It seems it's always easier for management to take away than for them to give back. Our 320 people took the biggest hit because they were being compared to WJ. Now that WJ salaries have gone up, management doesn't compare us anymore. ACPA tried but the arbitrator didn't buy it.
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thrust set
- Rank 3
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RB-211
I fully hear what you are saying about AC and the way they treat the new-hires, but as Tony mentioned it. ALL newhires regardless of what aircraft you are on will have to do the two years of flat pay salary. I did it years ago and a friend is coming over next week from Jazz and he will be on flat salary (albeit) a little higher than the off the street candidate, but hey he has been there for like 9 years. If he is placed on the Airbus and after two years can carry over fours years for pay then will be out of the position group and be making a good rate just after two. So to reiterate all newhires will be on flat salary for 2 years. If you bid away from the position group (EMJ FO/ CRP) then will be on formula pay.
You can spin it any way you want, bottom line the first two years are tough suck it up and enjoy the ride.
I fully hear what you are saying about AC and the way they treat the new-hires, but as Tony mentioned it. ALL newhires regardless of what aircraft you are on will have to do the two years of flat pay salary. I did it years ago and a friend is coming over next week from Jazz and he will be on flat salary (albeit) a little higher than the off the street candidate, but hey he has been there for like 9 years. If he is placed on the Airbus and after two years can carry over fours years for pay then will be out of the position group and be making a good rate just after two. So to reiterate all newhires will be on flat salary for 2 years. If you bid away from the position group (EMJ FO/ CRP) then will be on formula pay.
You can spin it any way you want, bottom line the first two years are tough suck it up and enjoy the ride.
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The Hammer
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- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:46 am
Tony
Your right, the first two years have always sucked at AC but now the bottom 3-400 guys pay sucks for a lot more than two years. Did a DC9 FO's pay suck after two years? NO!!! On the RJ it sucked but there were only 25 of them not 60. I guess ACPA only sticks up for the bottom "243" in 1996 not in 2006..
IMHO
Your right, the first two years have always sucked at AC but now the bottom 3-400 guys pay sucks for a lot more than two years. Did a DC9 FO's pay suck after two years? NO!!! On the RJ it sucked but there were only 25 of them not 60. I guess ACPA only sticks up for the bottom "243" in 1996 not in 2006..
IMHO
