Jazz Cadet program??

SAF1 · Post by **SAF1** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:19 pm

I heard someone mention something about the possibility of Jazz starting a Cadet program through Aviaition Colleges.

Anyone have any info about this?

ramp_agent · Post by **ramp_agent** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:06 pm

hahahahahahahahahahaha,

thank you you just made my day

qwert · Post by **qwert** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:26 pm

cause there is a real "SHORTAGE" of pilots... right?

Sage · Post by **Sage** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:54 pm

No, it's true. I chatted with one of the ACPs in YYZ and he mentioned that they were looking into this. The college is Seneca and they already have an RJ sim. The candidates apparently are going to come to Jazz already PPC'd...hence the visions of cost savings dancing through the managers' heads. During CRM, MC mentioned this also.

I don't like this at all. It's bad enough that we taxpayers are paying for these aviation colleges to flood the market and to turn out pilots like an assembly line and now we wil have to pay for their PPCs so they can cut in line.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:00 pm

I don't see it happening. Even if they come with a ppc you still have to retrain them to the Jazz SOP's. Then you have to get them up to standard on the line as well. Its a tough transition for someone who has been in the IFR game for a while never mind someone who has never been in actual instrument conditions before. And what if they need Dash-8 guys at the time. I can't imagine hiring guys that you can only put on one type. In the end I don't see it saving any money and there certainly is no shortage of guys with some decent experience applying to Jazz.

qwert · Post by **qwert** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:11 pm

Im sure insurance premiums go up with 200 hour FO's... Cost saving? Maybe not

Dizzy · Post by **Dizzy** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:20 pm

If you'd read an earlier thread, our director of flight ops said it was being considered for Jazz. Again, they're also considering Dash 8 replacements. I wouldn't believe it until I see it but it's still shocking to hear it. Right now we were told an ATPL with good time. The lowest time I recall in the last groundschool was about 2600 hours.

RobZombie · Post by **RobZombie** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:31 pm

Don't you people pay a percentage of your wages to a group called ALPA to prevent this type of nonsense???

ciao
RZ

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:09 am

It always amazes me that people back home think a 200 hour pilot can't fly a Dash 8/CRJ or an A320 for that matter. It happens, and it happens more than you think.

Screen your applicants carefully, train them to a very high standard and watch them go. Where is the problem? European carriers have done it since airlines appeared.

I think it would be refreshing if a Canadian carrier gave it a go. My only reservation would be that nepotism would creep in as always and the best candidates may or may not get through. Cough.................

Now ducking.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:46 am

RB.
I agree. The cadet program has worked well in the old continent. Although very expensive to run, the pilots produced are usually quite loyal and aquire company culture in the process. In our system, pilots bring in other "cultures" from other places, mixing up the operation mentallity.

squawk 7600 · Post by **squawk 7600** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:41 am

The reason why they do it in the "old country" (namely Germany, Holland, France, etc.) is because the average person cannot afford to pay for flying lessons there. The cost of doing a commercial licence with multi-IFR can run upwards of $130,000 U.S. plus. So there isn't much of a market for airlines to chose from. So airlines like Air France, KLM, Lufthansa run cadet programs training pilots from 0 hrs with a trainining bond...that the cadet/pilot pays a portion back over a long period of time. This is really the only way they can inject the market with trained pilots.

That system isn't necessary here. It is much easier and cheaper to get a Commecial/ATPL here. I think the talk of a cadet program in association with AirC/Jazz is just a publicity stunt to attract students to the program. If the thing ever got started, you would see a very, very small percentage of "cadets" getting jobs with these companies. I mean, really, isn't there plenty of ATPL pilots out there with "real" flying experience that these companies would rather take. Yes, sure they have worked in different companies and are not "cultured" to Air C or Jazz, but isn't a variety of experience better for the company?

I'd love to hear the interview:

interviewer- "can u tell me a time when a stressful situation arose when flying and how did you deal with it?"

interviewee- "um, one time I was flying and there were 3 other planes in the circuit. I just resorted to my excellent training at Seneca and got the plance down without incident."

interviewer- "great! you are perfect. All that experience...you are hired!"

Give me a break!

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:49 am

It won't happen in Canada. There are too many pilots here vs "THE OLD COUNTRY". I don;t get if the best snott-nosed jockey Seneca had to oofer was recruited, you can;t replace good old fashioned experience. 200 hour pilots may be flying around Europe, that doesn't mean I want them in the seat next to me on a stormy night.

What you are hearing was a "what if" conversation and a whole lotta wishing on behalf of the Seneca students.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:12 am

Untill there actually is a real pilot shortage, I cannot see it happening.

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:22 am

KAG, you may be right.

The USAF/RAF/CAF all put 300 hour pilots in multi million dollar fighters to defend their countries. Large carriers put low hour pilots in their jets and do so with excellent success. Some of the best pilots I have flown with joined my carrier from college.

Experience is a valuable thing to have but the key here where you get it. Getting it from day one in a large jet is not a bad start.

There are many unemployed pilots in the countries who hire low time pilots I may add. The airlines pick the people they want and leave the rest. Enough said.

Treetopflyer · Post by **Treetopflyer** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:50 pm

I don't think the Seneca "sim" is a sim that you can get a PPC on. It isn't full motion, and not all the things work in it. It is more like a CPT than anything.

popo · Post by **popo** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:13 pm

I am not sure it has to do with pilot shortage...
it has to do with company training and their strategy.
take a young guy/gal with good hands and feet, and a spongy brain and you can do miracles..
you train them the way you want, the younger the better. like any thing.

it has been done, Europe and the military...
and when you fly a jet it become about how much do you know, procedure AOM..FOM...cos you don't fly anymore you are just an operator.

I know some of you are bitter about this but it might happen.
Do you think Jazz..and others care about how many pilots there are in the street..may be if they are short..but they don t care if there are too many qualified pilots...
remember it is like AC...they do what they want ..they don t care about what you/we think.
Jazz might turn into Comair? who knows??? you see those guys all over, some of the crew at comair, CA and FO combined have less hours then a regular CMA/GGN 1900 driver... it works.

can easily be done..a dash would be hard to get use too.
give anyone 6 months on any airplane...and they be fine.
part of the BTO checks will be " Lester 7 off 06 L , runway hdg to 5000"
" sit on your hand and touch nothing" " any questions?"

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:53 pm

popo wrote: Jazz might turn into Comair? who knows??? you see those guys all over, some of the crew at comair, CA and FO combined have less hours then a regular CMA/GGN 1900 driver... it works.

Not only Comair... Check this out:

FIRST OFFICER

WORK STATUS: Full-Time

LOCATION: Denver, CO

JOB SUMMARY:
The First Officer is responsible for the safe and efficient operation as directed by the pilot-in-command and company approved procedures.

KEY RESPONSIBILITIES:
• Assist or relieve the PIC in the manipulation of the flight controls of the aircraft
• Responsible to the PIC to ensure that the flights he participates in are in with the FAR’s and company operating procedures
• Assists the PIC in operating the flight safely and efficiently

KEY REQUIREMENTS:
• 750 hrs Total Time
• 50 hrs Multi Engine
• Commercial Certificate
• Current Class 1 medical
• Recommendation from current staff pilot weighed heavily
• Instument and Multi Engine current
• 4 year degree preferred

This is for Great Lakes Airlines.A job posting notification for:
Embraer EMB-120 Brasilia
30 Seat Turbo Prop

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:20 am

procedure AOM..FOM...cos you don't fly anymore you are just an operator

part of the BTO checks will be " Lester 7 off 06 L , runway hdg to 5000"
" sit on your hand and touch nothing" " any questions?"

Brilliant, just brillaint. Quote number one is fine when everything is working but when the shit hits the fan, I want an F/O that can fly an airplane and work the computer. I hate to break it to you but neither the D8 or the CRJ that Jazz operate are autoland so on a snowy night with vis down to nothing going into Timmins, I want a guy who has a little time under his belt beside me. I don't give a shit which college offering what sim they are going to cadet from, give me a guy with real life flying experience anyday.

I would sooner have soeone flying next to me that has a few thousand crosswind landings under his belt before I have to sit back and watch them try one on a greasy runway with a 36kt push from the side.

Quote number two, well, that argument works against a low timer. These are 2 crew operations and if one member is only qualified to sit on his hands and not touch anything, then it is only a crew and a half.

Fact is, Jazz doesn't need to hire 250 hour college kids because there are plenty of qualified pilots in Canada. All the arguing in the world about Military and European airlines will not convince me that some college grad that has flown a CRJ sim is going to be a better candidate than someone who has flown for GGN or Bearskin.

There may be a handful of guys in Seneca or any college for that matter that have good hands and feet and understand systems well enough to adapt but the reality is, most are simply 250 hour pilots with a fresh IFR and a bit of sim time. Nothing more!!!

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:32 am

Yes they put cadets with 250hrs on jets in other countries. Have you ever worked with any of them? I fly with alot of guys that have done contracts overseas with airlines that have cadet programs. They all say the same thing. They know the procedures inside and out, could probably rebuild the thing if you needed it, but they have no idea what to do in a non standard situation. I'm not talking emergency situations here, when I say non standard, I mean things like a visual approach!!! They are trained to fly strictly by the book (ie flaps 8 at 10 miles, slow to 180 kts, gear at 6 miles etc etc) throw something else at them and they're all screwed up. Hard to take someone like that into say Castlegar on a nasty day, have them circle in Kamloops on a dirty night. It certainly doesn't mean that they won't be good pilots at some point, they just don't have the experience. With so many guys around with 3000hrs + I don't see a need to hire someone with 250hrs, even if they can quote the SOP's by heart.

SAF1 · Post by **SAF1** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:52 am

does the whole starting them off learning Jazz SOP's with no bad habits theory not apply?

...and didn't the whole Graduating classes snatched up back in the day by AC not work out ok?

....I'm still at Sault so bare with me

DEFPOTEC · Post by **DEFPOTEC** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:36 pm

Golden Flyer,

here's another, even worse...this is to fly a Q400.

Must be a UND graduate!!! Must have passport and first class medical. Total times, New minimums are 500 TT & 50 (firm)ME. Regular minimums were 1000 to include 100 multiengine time, or 900 TT & 150 ME, or 800 TT & 200 ME. Please see the application procedures below.

DEFPOTEC · Post by **DEFPOTEC** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:54 pm

or...

Job Title: First Officer--UND Alumni Only
Requirements: 500TT and 100 ME

this one to fly an RJ for food stamps.

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:21 pm

does the whole starting them off learning Jazz SOP's with no bad habits theory not apply?

That is an argument that would be made bya 250 hour pilot.

Anyone can learn new SOPs. You don't have to have one set of SOPs from graduation to be a good pilot. Furthermore, the SOPs are drilled into pilots in training, redrilled in line-indoc and redrilled 6 months later. There is no advantage to being a 250 hour pilot vs a 3000 hour pilot when it comes to SOPs.

I would sooner someone with the odd bad habit flying next to me over someone with no experience at all. If you doubt me, go to you-tube and watch some o fthe Asian airliners landing. Perfect example of low timers flying big shit!

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:49 pm

Captains new emergency briefing " in case of emergency, this aircraft has two levers. Lever A and Lever B. I will look after lever A and you just lever B"

I have always loved the "you can train a 200 pilot to your companies standards so they will have no bad habbits." The only pilots saying that are 200 pilots. You can't train experience.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:32 am

Ya know anyone can fly a plane when it’s CAVOC, no winds and a fully functioning plane. Experience comes into play when the weather is bad, the plane is misbehaving, or the CPT makes a mistake, and you need to say/do something. These are things that no 200 hour pilot has dealt with let alone knows how to properly deal with. I don’t care how in-depth any course is, there is nothing that can replace “been there, done that” experience, and comparing Canada to the rest of the world is literally comparing apples to oranges – you don’t get the aviation opportunities anywhere else in the world that you get here, so the pool that world wide carriers draws is less experienced than say what our airlines draw from.
IMHO anyway.

Cheers.