Heavy Jet versus Flight Instructor?

Triple_Seven · Post by **Triple_Seven** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:08 pm

Hi all,

I'm having a bit of trouble deciding which path to take for my fourth year of school. Im in a join degree/flight training program, and for the fourth year (after we're multi-IFR rated) we have the choice of doing either Heavy Jet Operations or Flight Instructor rating. My future goal is airline pilot, so deep down inside I'd much rather do the Heavy Jet option, but realistically.. I dont know how smart a choice that is. The Heavy Jet sim is done on an older 747-200 sim (no motion but nice visuals, steam gauges etc. its ex-Air Canada), and a King Air (full motion) sim. Basically it includes a lot of learning about procedures, crew management, cockpit factors etc. as well as general 747 and heavy jet / airline info (ie systems, planning, emergencies etc.) The instructor rating is pretty straight forward, just a regular CLASS IV rating.

Ultimately, I'd rather do the Sim as it's more what I want to do with my life, but as it doesnt get me anything on my license Ive been told its a waste of time. At least the instructor rating is an actual rating and gets you hours. On the other hand, I've heard instructor ratings are fairly useless in the sense many airlines limit the instructor hours you can put forward, and they know that instructor hours arent really you flying, its just day single engine VFR circuits, stalls with little x/c that you more or less supervise.

Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated.. and sorry for the long post.

Thanks a lot!

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:27 pm

Does anyone teaching on the 47 actually have jet, let alone 47 time?
How many loggable hours do you get in the old 'actual' column with that sim IFR?
Are you going to get hired on a 47 as soon as you grad cause you did a 47 course at CPA?
Is the ground school done by someone who knows dick about heavies outside what's in From the Ground Up?

We both know the answer to those questions...

Is an instructor rating going to be more likely to get you a job and some hours (and feed you) in the lower mainland? Would you be happy working the ramp with all that 747 sim time?

I don't know your intended career path. If you don't ever want to instruct and you like sitting in sims, instead of actually flying, well then 47 is for you. If you'd rather get something recognised outside a small corner of YXX...

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:20 pm

If you're not doing the rating because you want to be an Instructor, don't waste your (and all your future students) time. Do everyone a favor and take another route.

It's about the journey, not the destination.

Degrassi · Post by **Degrassi** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:12 am

Ok, so first off, the King Air sim is not part of the heavy jet course. You do the King Air in the third year. And anyone that says that the 747 is useless is stupid. Obviously you arent going to get a direct entry position into a 747, everyone uses that as their arguement against it. If you wanted you could say that about all your trainning, cus last time i checked not so many are getting directly into the cockpit upon graduation.
Both options are valuable. 747 is designed to teach systems, if you know the systems of the 747 then your set for any groundschool that you attend. As well it is good CRM trainning. The instructor rating is also very valuable. As for the people that say instructing is not "real" time, whatever, i dont want to open that up for debate. Instructing furthers your knowledge base, "People who know, do. People who understand, teach". You have to know your stuff. As for the CPA program itself. well i wont go there.

Krashman · Post by **Krashman** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:13 pm

Well I'm a product of the system your speaking of... but I did both options. I agree with Degrassi... the 747 sim is grat for CRM training and invaluable for all sorts of planning. Decsent planing, flap scheduals, speed brakes and STARs. When are you going to take you twin commanche and fly a STAR. The instructor raiting is only good for people who really want to instruct. If you just want to get hours its not the thing for you. If you just want to get a right seat job... suck it up and go work on the ramp for a year or so. Alot of places only hire FOs from their ramp. Its all a question of what you want to do but don't let anyone ever tell you learning something new is worthless

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:32 pm

I wouldn't characterize the 747 course as worthless. However for the amount of money it costs, the value is simply not present. Owning an F-1 car wouldn't make me a racing expert. For a University level program, I was sorely disappointed in the quality of training. The program is more than adequate as a CPL?multi/IFR training FTU. But IMO, CPA needs some more academically advanced people to come on staff in order to bring the knowledge base up to a respectable post-secondary standard.

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:53 pm

"People who know, do. People who understand, teach"

I like that, good quote.

Triple_Seven · Post by **Triple_Seven** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:43 pm

If that is what the 47 sim is all about then thats perfect. I dont plan on taking the sim option so I can attempt to direct into Air Canada. Heck, I'd still be considering the sim option even if CPA didnt have a 747 sim. The thing that draws me the most to it is the advanced systems, the learning of new complex flight procedures, and the airline environment. You guys brought up some nice points about it, thanks.
As far as the instructor rating goes, I understand everyones arguement about if you dont want to instruct, then dont, cuz it will suck for the student. But Ive personally had at least 2 instructors who've done exactly that, and I never felt it detracted from their ability to teach. I can see how some problems may form, but I dont see how me not having a burning desire to teach should be a reason to not even consider the instructors option. It, like every other choice, will be a stepping stone to a future goal, so whether ur teaching students or flying local sightseeing, or towing gliders, or working on a ramp, its all something we all (or most) do just to get through to our main goals.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:49 pm

Triple_Seven wrote:The thing that draws me the most to it is the advanced systems, the learning of new complex flight procedures, and the airline environment.

That's exactly where it's lacking...

FlyerGirl · Post by **FlyerGirl** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:24 am

Triple_Seven wrote:On the other hand, I've heard instructor ratings are fairly useless in the sense many airlines limit the instructor hours you can put forward, and they know that instructor hours arent really you flying, its just day single engine VFR circuits, stalls with little x/c that you more or less supervise.

Ouch! Instructor ratings are fairly useless? I highly disagree with that statement and I am sure there are many that would have to agree with me on this! Can't believe that you can actually say that instructor hours are not actual flying hours...then why is is counting as PIC? It's because the instructor is the actual Pilot in Command! Who is there when the student does a botched landing and has to take over? And not all instructors are limited to as you put it...day, single engine, VFR circuits...blah, blah blah! There are actual instructors, believe it or not that do teach at night, IFR and also in twins! Wow! Hmmm... The other comment about a limitation put forward by airlines in the number of hours is crap...PIC hours are PIC hours however you look at it! In reality, many regional airlines favour applicants with instructing time due to the experience they have gained, especially teaching IFR where the IFR skills are current. But yes, there are other companies out there that do put more emphasis on hiring non-instructor rated pilots. Either way you look at it, instructors are very experienced pilots who are at least up on all of thier flying skils. In my eyes, there are two ways of looking at building time. First one being instructing, where all of the time that you log is PIC. If you can stick out instructing until you have 1000 hours PIC, you should be in an OK position to move on. Lots of companies out there are looking for 1000 hrs PIC to move on to a turboprop position as FO. At least with instructing, you have the PIC prior to sitting as FO. As FO, you are only able to log SIC time that only counts as half for ATPL licencing issues. The other choice is working the ramp, moving your way up to FO, but only being able to log your time as SIC until you get promoted to left seat. But, then you may get stuck getting enough SIC hours (since you need double) for the ATPL requirements. It's a tough choice...but the choice is up to the individual. And I am in no way saying that one choice is better than the other. All I can say though is that it is going to be a long road for you to finally make it to the airlines, young lad. The idea of the 747 simulator training...might be good for PDM skills, systems and the likes, but in reality you are going to have to stick it out in aviation for a while before seeing yourself in a real 747 sim! You gotta be realistic in aviation and pay your dues! Well...enough from me...you got me on this rant due to the quote that "instructor ratings are fairly useless..." Go tell this to your instructors who have worked their asses off getting you to the stage that you are at! Argh!

kazfire · Post by **kazfire** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:09 am

*claps* well said!

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:11 am

Get the flight instructor rating if you're paying for it.

If it's your parents' money, do both.

-istp

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:58 pm

You'll learn more about flying transport category jets by sitting down and reading "Handling the Big Jets" than by getting a few hours in a 747 sim. If flying the big stuff is your goal, buy that book and read it. Then, before your interview, read it again. And hell, you may just want to read it a third time just for fun. On a side note, since they're both basically "worthless" on the resume, I'd save the cash and go for the book.

Don't be fooled by any hype or the draw of flying a "big" sim. What you're getting is basic Cockpit Procedures Training (CPT) - and it really isn't going to prepare you for your first airline groundschool. The only thing that'll prepare you for that is some experience in the industry and a good work ethic. Now, if you want to do it to get a flavor for what a two crew cockpit runs like, and you've just gotta try the 747 out - well the sim could be fun...and sometimes fun is justification enough...just remember - it is what it is - and that may not be what you're getting fed by the people at your school.

Red Line · Post by **Red Line** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:42 pm

People that know, do. People that can't do, teach. People that can't teach, teach gym.

Triple_Seven · Post by **Triple_Seven** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:13 pm

FlyerGirl wrote: Well...enough from me...you got me on this rant due to the quote that "instructor ratings are fairly useless..." Go tell this to your instructors who have worked their asses off getting you to the stage that you are at! Argh!

I dont think you understood what I wrote ... I'm actually considering doing the instructor rating, which is why I've made this topic. I never personally said "instructor ratings are useless", as I said, thats what I've heard, which is why I've posted it here, to see other peoples views on the subject. In no way do I think instructing is useless, I'm just trying to see the pros and cons of each choice, so I can make a better decision myself.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:12 pm

If it were me I'd drop out now and save my money... Here's why...

1 - If you don't want to teach then don't - don't do it because it is the path others take and validate to you... Instructing does get you PIC time but it will only take you so far. Companies will wonder if you have much more than 1000 hours in the circuit and most will prefer real world operational experience - even as a co-pilot on a light twin.

2 - You won't be flying a 747-200... Does anyone in the world still fly this plane??? If you showed up at my company and even mentioned you knew about IFR/2 crew/CRM/systems etc because you flew the -200 sim for 20 hours you'd be laughed out of your interview... So where does it get you?

Neither are truly "worthless" you can take something out of them both but for the expense I'd be saving my money, lickin stamps, and packin the truck because that is what is going to get you your break. Go spend you "4th year" on the dock or the ramp and I bet you'll leave your classmates in the dust...

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:31 pm

Won't happen man. Once you're in, you can't get out. The school plays the 'you don't like it, leave' card and kids think that they can't, on account of they spent so much time and money already that they're stuck. Even though they learn about sunk costs in economics... oh so ironic.

Basically, once you've figured out that the training is not worth what you paid, you're already so far in that it doesn't make sense to you to quit. I really feel bad for alot of the student's I've talked to about just this subject. Ofcourse some totally buy into the hype about how the 'advanced training' is good and will make you that much better than the next guy. If only they had experience outside the one school to see just how average it is.
End rant.

Triple_Seven · Post by **Triple_Seven** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:09 pm

Thanks for the insight Altiplano, what you say is true.. and I have considered it.. unfortunately, mellow_pilot is right, essentially we are "trapped". I mean I could just leave, nothing really is stopping me, but since I still have to finish my degree, I cant do anything in that last year anyways. No one will hire me on the ramp while im juggling my fourth year of a degree, working part time of whenever I can. Since Im stuck in the last year of school, I may as well do one of the two options... but you bring up some good points about each. Im leaning towards the heavy jet, not becuase I think the 747 time is valuable, or becuase I think it will land me a job sooner... but because it'll be more fun, and I think the CRM, tho it wont help in an interview at all, will be beneficial in the cockpit. Since I dont have a burning desire to instruct, it seems like if Im gonna be stuck there in the last year, I may as well do something more fun, and since Im gonna end up on the ramp anyways, taking an instructor rating and then not really using it doest make much sense. Not to mention, the sim option is a little cheaper, I wont have to worry about wx cancellations, and I can fly on the side on my own jsut to keep building hours.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:44 pm

Don't airlines like instructor ratings? Obviously a resume comprised only of instructing hours is bad, but if you had only an instructor rating and no actual instructing hours an airline might be more likely to consider you for a promotion to check pilot. I don't have actual experience to base this on, but I think an instructor rating must hold value beyond merely legally permitting one to teach. I know its cost may not be worth that value if you're not planning to teach, but if choosing between that and sim time which is by all accounts totally worthless I'd go with the rating.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:04 pm

Which you'll enjoy more is the best criteria you can use. Good luck.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:57 pm

Finish your degree from home... or pickle lake/yellowknife/fort nowhere...

http://www.tru.ca/distance.html

Offset · Post by **Offset** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:53 pm

My advice, do the Instructors Rating. Keep your options open, even if you don't want to instruct now, at least you have the rating and the ability to change your mind. The 47 sim won't open any doors for you now or down the road. Even if you never work a day in your career as an instructor, you'll learn how to coach new pilots, which will help you someday when you're sitting in the left seat next to someone fresh out of school with a lot to learn.

aileron · Post by **aileron** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:26 am

You know if it were an option: Defer the sim time. Get some valuable real-world experience. Then when you get that interview for a heavy airline job, a few years later, go back to school and do some sim time before your evaluation...

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:58 pm

aileron wrote:You know if it were an option: Defer the sim time. Get some valuable real-world experience. Then when you get that interview for a heavy airline job, a few years later, go back to school and do some sim time before your evaluation...

Bloody brilliant suggestion!

David Hasselhoff · Post by **David Hasselhoff** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:49 pm

Does your school offer flight instructor positions to former students?

If not....

Neither.

IF you really have to choose one, then go with the 747 CRM.

Once you graduate, do the instructor rating at a school that actually NEEDS a new instructor.

Think about it, how many flight schools are going to hire you with a fresh class 4 instructor rating?

1) you have no experience, and you are an unknown

2) that was $5,000 dollars you could have spent on them

3) they get to know you (hopefully like you) enough through Flight Instructor training to offer you a job with them once your finished.

Flight instructing should get you over the 500 hour hump and on your way. The CRM/ procedure training will help you later down the road when you go for your first real groundschool cram.

Heavy Jet versus Flight Instructor?

Heavy Jet versus Flight Instructor?

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Re: Heavy Jet versus Flight Instructor?

Re: Heavy Jet versus Flight Instructor?