Logging Time Q

[TopperHarley]

Got a few questions as to keeping track of flight times.

Let's say I fly 6.0 hours. I log the air time in the "hood" column assuming we filed IFR. I log whatever amount of time in the "actual IMC" assuming we spent time in cloud (this usually works out to maybe .1 to .3, sometimes 0, since most time is spent above the clouds). I keep track of the number of approaches I flew assuming I was the PF (i.e. if I was the PNF, I don't log it), and I do it the same way for the number of takeoffs and landings.

Is this a good way of doing it? Everyone seems to have their own way of logging their time and I'm not sure if this is the "accepted" way by TC. The way I look at it, is that "hood" time is the time you spend while on instruments, and this has no bearing if its IMC or VMC, but only depends on whether you filed IFR or VFR. The "actual IMC" column, however, is only for time spent in clouds/IMC conditions.

[LastSamurai]

C-HRIS,

Log any time you spend in actual IMC in the "IMC (ACTUAL)" column.

Log any time spent under the hood, in either IMC or VMC, in the "SIMULATED" column. (you probably havent spent any time under the hood since your instrument rating, so this column is mostly not used)

Log any approaches that you do, either PF or PNF, in the "NO. IFR APPR." column.

Although some employers like to see what kind of actual instrument time you have, these columns are mostly there to keep track of your instrument currency (the ol' 6-6 in 6 rule).

If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me.

LS

[rexrunner]

assuming we spent time in cloud (this usually works out to maybe .1 to .3, sometimes 0, since most time is spent above the clouds)
.......
The "actual IMC" column, however, is only for time spent in clouds/IMC conditions.

even on top of cloud should be IMC, shouldn't it, if you can't see the ground?
that should count too, shouldn't it? no reference to the ground? cause it isn't VFR OTT if you punch through cloud here and there and all the other requirements for VFR OTT aren't met?

how do the air canada pilots log a trip that is filed IFR that goes from YYZ to YVR in blue skies at 35,000' but on top of a cloud deck that is at 10,000'? is it logged IFR?

[TheHub]

C-HRIS, I'll give you my opinion on this.........

1. The hood column is used only for logging time while under the hood with a safety pilot or instructor/training Capt. next to me. The way I look at it is, the Actual column and the Hood column are supposed to add up together in the same flight to something less than or equal to your air time of that particular flight ie. 1.0 flight (air time) - 0.4 spent in the clouds, had a hood on the entire time....rest is VMC, my logbook would show 0.4 actual and 0.6 hood. In your example, you could possibly come up with numbers greater than the air time of your flight, and that hood time counts towards your ATPL, so you'd logging a whole lot of instrument time in a real short period.

2. I do the same in terms of Actual IMC, I only log time actually spent in IMC...I know many who do it differently (log all air time while filed IFR, etc...) but when you show up to TC to get your ATPL signed off, and have 500 hrs. in the right seat of a BE200 or whatever...I wouldn't want to have 425 of those hours as Actual IMC!!!! This is more just a personal opinion though, I'm not sure how the CAR's would define this one, but I like to know my approximate ACTUAL time.....if I want to know how many hours I have under instrument flight rules, I just subract my current total time from my total time when I started flying IFR on a daily basis and figure out an approximate number from there.

3. If you are flying in a 2 crew airplane, you are completing every approach/landing/take-off whether you are the PF or PNF, so don't cut yourself short. By all means keep track of the stuff you do as PF if you want, but for currency, a take-off and landing can be logged whether you are at the controls or not.

[grammar boy]

how do the air canada pilots log a trip that is filed IFR that goes from YYZ to YVR in blue skies at 35,000' but on top of a cloud deck that is at 10,000'? is it logged IFR?

I can't speak for Air Canada pilots (I work for the competition), but I think most of us stopped logging IFR (and cross country time for that matter) about 30 seconds after we got our ATPLs. All I log now is day/night, PIC or SIC. And I only log night time to prove that I've done the landings (it's pretty easy to not get a night landing for a couple months during summer sometimes!)

I guess you could log IFR time until you get on with a "major" since they may ask what you've got. In that case, one of the TC types that lurk here can tell you what/how to log it.

[altiplano]

Log the time you spent in the cloud as IMC.

Don't log time as simulated unless you are training and need the time as a requirement. ie. initial ifr.

As pilots we always want to put more #'s in our logbooks but why bother?

That's how I do it anyway. We always fly IFR and if I logged every flight as IMC/simulated all my time would be instrument and it would look stupid in the next interview I went to...

[TopperHarley]

That's how I do it anyway. We always fly IFR and if I logged every flight as IMC/simulated all my time would be instrument and it would look stupid in the next interview I went to...

I agree, but I have always made a note on my resume to differentiate between my "instrument" time, and my "actual" time. For example, I would have a line indicating my total instrument time, then another line indicating my total actual IMC time.

I'm not sure what is used for the ATP 75 hr instrument requirement (actual or simulated+actual), but I have always done it this way. I'm still about 750 hrs short of the ATP, so I am guessing that when it comes time for me to apply for it, I will have 75 hrs actual IMC anyways, so it doesnt really seem to matter much I guess. Then again, since this time is FO time, I will need double the amount, so it could affect me.

[Chuck Yeagermister]

What about if you fly above 180 all day? But its VMC. You have to be filed IFR to get up there. Is that considered IFR time?

[Hedley]

It ought to be pretty clear that IFR does NOT equal IMC, because you can file IFR in VMC. Right?

Instrument time is time spent in IMC - NOT time spent operating under IFR , in either IMC or VMC.

Now, what is IMC? From a practical standpoint, IMC is any time that I would be unhappy without an attitude indicator.

If you don't need an attitude indicator to tell which way is up, don't log IMC time.

Be honest. Don't pad your logbook. I know the temptation for the low-timers is strong, but don't give in to the dark force

There's an old saying that the most valuable possession you can have is your integrity, and it cannot be given to you - it is a gift to yourself.

[RFN]

IMC and IFR are not the same thing.
A flight conducted under Instrument Flight "Rules" could be entirely flown in VMC. Flying along in the flight levels (more likely than not with the autopilot on), above the clouds is easy.
Flying along in the soup, probably down low and shooting an approach is harder. In my opinion, that is what is of interest in the logbook; "how much time did you spend down low in the clag handling the airplane?"
So when I log Instrument time, I log the time spent in the cloud, flying (not just navigating) by the instruments.
For me it works out to about 350hrs out of about 3800hrs.

[spaz]

What's the point of logging IMC time?

[Pugster]

I've never met a pilot on the line (outside of the flight training world) that actually looks at his watch the minute he enters IMC and then looks again when he exits.

Hedleys suggestion that you should log IMC anytime you "need" an attitude indicator is, IMHO, bang on. I figured it out one day (really roughly) and the average flight I spent 10% of my flight time in IMC (this was on a BE20). So, unless the day was severe clear, or IMC all the way, I would just log 10% of my total air time. I've heard that several airline HR departments out there consider the 10% figure to be around the norm.

Likewise, I logged ALL of my time flying at night IFR as IMC.

I've been asked in the past by potential employers how much instrument time I had, but as soon as I transitioned to a primarily IFR job those questions are were longer asked. Hood time "generally" doesn't happen outside of flight training, so your simulated column shouldn't really be more than you gained on your initial or recurrent IFR rides. I've never been put under a hood on a PPC, although I'm sure there are training Captains out there that do it.

I must admit it's pretty ridiculous that I can log IMC at night on a 3 hour leg with the autopilot on (or the other pilot flying) while some poor guy slogging it out single-pilot on an initial IFR cannot just because he's on top of a layer. Heck, with controlled rest now in the CARs, I guess we can log IMC because we're looking at backs of our eyelids

Anyways, hope this clears it up. Get the IFR time any way you can for the ATPL, and then I'm sure you won't be worrying about it!

[ei ei owe]

CHRIS,

You're working at PAG right? Your next step will be somewhere bigger and those on the hiring board will know that after 3 years of flying a metro at the commuter level, you'll have more than enough IMC, IFR, night, approaches and all that shit. Log it to make you happy until the ATPL is signed off but after that who cares. I've got more things to do than count the minutes I spend in the clouds.

[LastSamurai]

What's the point of logging IMC time?

Like I said to C-HRIS, it may be useful to keep track of your Instrument Rating validity ie. 6-6 in 6.

LS

[TopperHarley]

For the PPL you need 5 hrs "instrument" and for the CPL you need 10 hrs. These hours are obviously never conducted in actual IMC, and when I did my training, I kept track of this time in the "hood" column. I used the "SIM." column for all my training in the flight schools sims and the sim training for my PPC (both were approved sims).

I'm not sure what TC uses for the 75 hr requirement for the ATP (actual IMC, vs, hood/simulated as it does for the PPL and CPL). Either way, by the time I get the requirements for the ATP, I should have over 75 hrs actual IMC, so it shouldn't be a problem. And I'm assuming that since Im an FO now, I will need 150 hrs actual IMC (i.e. my time only counts as half).

Personally I don't really care about my exact instrument time, but I really just want my logbook to be in order as I know there will come a time when TC needs it to review for my ATP.

[flyincanuck]

Sorry, don't mean to be a prick.

PPL=5
Night=10
CPL=20

Anyway, flying on top of the clouds is a grey matter, no? IMC or not?

[Check Pilot]

The way TC usually looks at it is that "hood" time is time that you probably have not done for a long time i.e. - using a "view limiting device" or hood.

Instrument time can be accepted as loggable time anytime you must fly the aircraft with sole reference to the instruments and have no outside references that are visually available i.e. in cloud or on a really dark night in order to control the aircraft attitude, altitude, speed and heading. In other words you have to be "on the guages" to fly the aircraft because there are no outside visual references of any kind. Flying under IFR out in the clear, on top or otherwise is not recognized by TC as valid "instrument" time.

It has nothing to do with operating rules such as IFR, VFR, VFR OTT, VFR on top, etc.

The real intent of the experience requirements is the ability to control the aircraft with only the instruments in the aircraft in order to successfully control the machine.

Hope that helps.

[Hedley]

since I'm an FO now, I will need 150 hrs actual IMC (i.e. my time only counts as half)

uh, no. Go re-read CAR 421.10 - it's only towards the TOTAL TIME requirement that FO time counts for half - you only need 75 hrs instrument for the ATPL, which can be dual (eg under hood), or as PIC or FO in cloud.

What trips up more applicants for the ATPL, who have bags of FO time but not much PIC, is the requirement for 25 hrs night x/c as PIC.

[bandit1]

so if a guy has say 200 hours right seat on a Metro or King Air and has 175 hours logged "IFR", would TC not accept that as instrument time?

The way I see it, if you have over 75 hours night IFR, that should count right there towards your IMC time right?

does everyone log IMC or just IFR for the ATPL?

[WJ700]

The way TC usually looks at it is that "hood" time is time that you probably have not done for a long time i.e. - using a "view limiting device" or hood.

Instrument time can be accepted as loggable time anytime you must fly the aircraft with sole reference to the instruments and have no outside references that are visually available i.e. in cloud or on a really dark night in order to control the aircraft attitude, altitude, speed and heading. In other words you have to be "on the guages" to fly the aircraft because there are no outside visual references of any kind. Flying under IFR out in the clear, on top or otherwise is not recognized by TC as valid "instrument" time.

It has nothing to do with operating rules such as IFR, VFR, VFR OTT, VFR on top, etc.

The real intent of the experience requirements is the ability to control the aircraft with only the instruments in the aircraft in order to successfully control the machine.

Hope that helps.

Now I'm curious. I just flew from Palm Springs to Calgary last week. At no time did I enter cloud in 3 hours, nor did really look out the window. I accepted an ILS approach in to Calgary, and did most of it by looking at the 'screens'

However, under TC's eyes I didn't fly on instruments? I'm honeslty curious because I wouldn't feel good flying VFR without a long check out.