Drunk Pilots

looproll · Post by **looproll** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:07 pm

There are hundreds of arrests each year for impaired driving, but not flying. We're letting it slide! Such a poor attitude to have. It's up to those around the perpetrator to bust his ass hard and get him out of the system. Zero tolerance is the only acceptable answer.

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:23 pm

Good post.

It truly is not worth it.

Not a "flying while intoxicated" scenario but when I was at UND 6 years ago a fellow Canadian who was instructing there got his second DUI one night. The next day he went out, took one of the new twins, flew to Iowa and after giving contact numbers to the tower controller he crashed the airplane into the middle of the runway.

Very sad, and definitely not worth the few dollars he saved by not taking a cab.

Hotel Tango · Post by **Hotel Tango** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:27 pm

But if I don't go out and get hammered and stupid I will be "that guy" and no one will like me, trust me or want to work with me.
It doesn't matter that I just don't like to drink that much, I have to or become "that guy" and ostricized (sp?) by my flying peers.

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:41 pm

Hotel Tango wrote:But if I don't go out and get hammered and stupid I will be "that guy" and no one will like me, trust me or want to work with me.
It doesn't matter that I just don't like to drink that much, I have to or become "that guy" and ostricized (sp?) by my flying peers.

Yeah no shit. Wasn't there just a thread saying that pilots have to drink to be accepted?

Sasquash · Post by **Sasquash** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:49 pm

The FAA in the States receives all info on impaired driver across the USA. You DUI in the Land of the Free and you loose both, flying and driving licence. No so yet in Canada, however if the authorities are aware of the accused being a pilot, the Crown can request the Judge to issue a Court Order prohibiting the accused from flying as well. Good post S&J

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:19 pm

What about alcoholics who quit drinking, are they to much of a risk for commercial aviation?

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:32 pm

The 8 hour rule is bullshit. Make it 24hrs! I have a hard time pulling airplanes out of the hangar 8hrs after a night of drinking.

scm · Post by **scm** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:23 pm

hazatude wrote:The 8 hour rule is bullshit. Make it 24hrs! I have a hard time pulling airplanes out of the hangar 8hrs after a night of drinking.

200hr Wonder's post is worthy of a quote here. just to clarify.

200hr Wonder wrote:The 8 hour rule is a complete and utter fallacy and I really wish people would quite preaching 8 hours bottle to throttle. 8 Hour is the MINIMUM amount of time that you are required to wait. 602.03(b) clearly states No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft while under the influence of alcohol. Know I do not know about you but I have been on a few benders in my time and there have been occasions when I was still under the influence of alcohol in the 24 to 36 hour arena. If you drink anything at all you must wait until you are no longer under the influence which means that your blood is free of alcohol or you have a 0.00% reading during a blood test. For some this can be quite a period depending on the amount consumed. Remember people you must comply with subsections a b and c of the regs. Oh and the number they where looking for was found in Air 3.11

Alcohol or Drugs - Crew Members

602.03 No person shall act as a crew member of an aircraft

(a) within eight hours after consuming an alcoholic beverage;

(b) while under the influence of alcohol; or

(c) while using any drug that impairs the person's faculties to the extent that the safety of the aircraft or of persons on board the aircraft is endangered in any way.

AIR 3.11 Alcohol
Never fly while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. It
is best to allow at least 24 hours between the last drink and
takeoff time, and at least 48 hours after excessive drinking.
Alcohol is selectively concentrated by the body into certain
areas and remains in the fluid of the inner ear even after all
traces of alcohol in the blood have disappeared. This accounts
for the difficulty in balance that is experienced in a hangover.
Even small amounts of alcohol (0.05%) have been shown in
simulators to reduce piloting skills. The effect of alcohol and
hypoxia is additive and at 6 000 feet ASL (1 829 m), the effect
of one drink is equivalent to two drinks at sea level. The body
metabolizes alcohol at a fixed rate and no amount of coffee,
medication or oxygen will alter this rate. ALCOHOL AND
FLYING DO NOT MIX.

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:59 pm

The following thread on pprune may shed a great deal of misunderstandings about alcoholism. Especially the threads by LProuse starting on page 3. A Northwest Airlines pilot sacked in the 90's for flying while impaired.

Definitely worth the read.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256861

stef · Post by **stef** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:17 pm

Its not 8hrs for a night of drinking Haza. Its 8hrs for 1 beer. Its 48hrs for a night of drinking.

Not sure the financial hardship point is valid. I think most of us could make more money in another line of work not as fun.

Ironic that I'm posting about drinking excessively while drinking excessively. Don't call transport on me though sweet and what ever. I don't work again for 5 days.

Hi Rudy.

fogghorn · Post by **fogghorn** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:20 pm

The only thing I can say on this topic is how the hell do you operate a plane while drunk?? I mean - you may be able to pull off flying a vfr machine around in quiet airspace somewhere at over .08 - in fact I know of a few people who have done it, (no longer with us either as a result of eventually piling a DC-3 in in rather mysterious circumstances, but that is another story) but how would you fly a large jet or something in busy airspace, etc., etc. - it is beyond me.

especially if you were really gorged.

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:21 pm

I'm half snapped right now.

TerrainTerrain · Post by **TerrainTerrain** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:53 pm

stef wrote: Ironic that I'm posting about drinking excessively while drinking excessively. Don't call transport on me though sweet and what ever. I don't work again for 5 days.

Hi Rudy.

Atta boy, sweet and whatever.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:54 pm

I find a few beers really improves my skillz when shooting a tough non-precision to minimums. But I'm not an idiot..just light beers. Duh! You gotta be responsible to be a pilot!!

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:43 pm

Forget the Booze, what about the three kids climbing out of their A/C two days ago smelling of pot, I don't think hot boxing a plane is the best of ideas.

Meatloaf · Post by **Meatloaf** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:37 am

I'll happily end the career of anyone I find drunk flying an aircraft. It's bad enough drinking and driving. I've been to more than enough car accidents and extricated the remains of too many innocent passengers to give a crap about the P.O.S who gets into an airplane drunk. Disagree? Give me your # and I'll call you the next time I'm out picking ears off the highway.

Flybabe · Post by **Flybabe** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:23 am

Lurch wrote:Forget the Booze, what about the three kids climbing out of their A/C two days ago smelling of pot, I don't think hot boxing a plane is the best of ideas.

Falls right into line with this thread.

I may get flamed for this but whatever - there is no place for either in aviation. In fact... I'd love to see mandatory urine testing. Had to do it in the US, needs to be implemented here on a larger scale.

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:24 am

While the general consensus seems to be to take harsh and immediate action against a pilot who would show up under the influence for a flight, I was wondering, what about the case of a simulator/groundschool session?

(Ranging from noticeably drunk/hungover, to simply have had a drink or two followed by a short night's sleep placing the pilot within the 8 hour limit)

Goodbye,

Louis

Meatloaf · Post by **Meatloaf** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:31 am

Louis,

While the situation you presented is not immediately dangerous, being hungover negates the point of the groundschool thereby indirectly jeopardizing the safety of the aircraft. To be a professional, you have to act like a professional. That would mean never allowing any off duty activity to interfere in any manner, however minor, with your chosen profession.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:21 am

Are we talking about being so bold as too have 1 beer with some tourists at an outpost camp and then flying home. Or are we talking about getting shitfaced, drinking until close and then flying at noon the next day. Or are we talking about getting a good buzz on before your 6pm sched to YYZ.
I have been in the business long enough to know that most would never be so bold as to pull off a number 1, or a number 3 but I have seen a number 2 done a few times.

niwre · Post by **niwre** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:05 am

I remember this one time I was at a "party" with a few people (mainly pilots and one controller) and one of my students decided to down half a bottle of 151 in one shot and said he'll be fine (famous last words) it took three of us to hold him up long enough to get into the cab (almost told the cabbie to take him to the hospital) and he wanted to fly at noon after doing this at about 1am. Would not sign him out or the next day either.... he was GONE!!! Now this was the only incident I saw and if scared me to see this many young pilots developing the "im ok to fly 8 hours after I down a 24". I may be young myself but c'mon now use your brain, if your head still hurts maybe you should not fly.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:12 am

looproll wrote:There are hundreds of arrests each year for impaired driving, but not flying. We're letting it slide! Such a poor attitude to have. It's up to those around the perpetrator to bust his ass hard and get him out of the system. Zero tolerance is the only acceptable answer.

Are people just letting it slide, or is there maybe some sort of work ethic involved? I know plenty of pilots who are heavy drinkers, but not many would would consider showing up drunk or hung over. Then again, I'm just listening to them on the radio, I'm not sitting in the cockpit.

I'd like to think that there are fewer people busted for flying drunk because of some level of responsibility on their part, not because of a lack of caring on the part of co-workers who notice it going on.

Concestor 0 · Post by **Concestor 0** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:31 am

The issue here is inebriation of any kind. Counting the number of drinks or pills or puffs is a convenient way of estimating how long you should wait to fly again but the effects of fatigue are harder to judge. My pet peeve is how often a pilot will show up totally unrested and then work a 14 hr shift, their time off being spent working other jobs or playing hard.

Research has shown that the effects of fatigue are similar to moderate alcohol consumption. On-the-job performance loss for every hour of wakefulness between 10 and 26 hours is equivalent to a .004 per cent rise in blood alcohol concentration. Eighteen hours of wakefulness is usually considered to be equivalent to a blood alcohol concentration of .05. A person who has been awake for this length of time will act and perform as if they have consumed .05 of alcohol

There are many ways to estimate a persons impairment (ie. drug testing, hours since exposer, sleep time etc...) but is there a test for mental alertness?

richardhead · Post by **richardhead** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:14 am

While I agree with the previous post. I too find it quite frustrating when the chap you are working with hasn't had a wink of sleep all day and then shows for work and sleeps all the way till TOD. However that's life, in our industry. The hours are so screwed up that life tends to get in the way sometimes. It happens to all of us sooner or later. As far as the DUI goes. Allow me to pose this question. I guy goes out and has 2 beers. He is now legally impaired in the eyes of the law. He is a criminal. That being said he is pulled over and charged. The law is the law. Should he now lose his pilot's license?

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:21 am

Flybabe wrote:

I'd love to see mandatory urine testing. Had to do it in the US, needs to be implemented here on a larger scale.

So do you have to 'pee in the bottle' every time you show up to work, or is it just once a year at your medical, or at random? The first is going to be the only foolproof way, but the most expensive; the second a complete waste of time; and the third...A look at some of the threads on this over at pprune shows that there is quite a bit of concern about residual alcohol in your bloodstream even when you haven't been drinking. If you set a zero tolerance level, then you risk catching some truly innocent people, which may be fine if you are about to lose your min-wage job at WalMart or your driver's licence, but takes on a different light if it's a career at risk. Also what about the civil liberties thing? I show up for work (just to clarify, this is a rhetorical question!) after a few days off, and the urine test discovers metabolytes of any one of a host of illicit substances - no hint of impairment, or indeed, presence in the bloodstream - what happens then? I lose my licence because of what I did on my own time??
IMHO, most of the drug/alcohol testing in the States is due to a culture of paranoia surrounding those substances, not any coherent policy on them.

Drunk Pilots

level of alcohol consumption by young pilots is scary

Fatigue is a much greater issue