Flight Training is too cheap

[U/S]

Despite the fact you can run up a $60k bill fairly easily during the course of training the cost involved is not enough of a deterrent to keep people from completing it. I spoke to a European pilot who is in the midst of flight training and his bill when all is said and done will be 103,000 Euros or $155k CAD. Faced with the prosect of forking over that much money I'm sure many potential students would balk at the idea of pursuing a career as a pilot. If flight training was the same price in North America as it is in Europe the demand would eventually outpace the supply and we would enjoy the same healthy salaries and career opportunities as our European counterparts. On completion of his training he told me the very minimum salary he can expect will be 3500 euros a month or $5250 CAD if he is fortunate his first job will pay him almost double that. After sitting in the right seat of a 37 for 5 years an upgrade will pay $15k CAD per month. Its true that the cost of living in Europe (at least in major centres) is higher and he will certainly work for his pay check but with 5 weeks of vacation to start and a schedule it seems like a great deal to me. If all the flight schools doubled their rates tomorrow maybe we could pay instructors what they are worth and the salaries in the rest of the industry would follow suit. Initially this would be a hard pill to swallow, perhaps we could grandfather enrolled students so they can train at current rates. If all the schools were on board I think this would fix our industry and we wouldn't be a universal joke.

[Stan_Cooper]

I don't think there's a perfect solution. I think this might make the market a bit more pilot-friendly, but my fear is that guys and girls who would otherwise be an asset to the industry would find themselves unable to get in the game.

[172pilot]

Out of curiosity, what does a PPL cost in Europe? How many hours is the min for the license? What is the average price/litre for 100 LL fuel (or their equiv)? Also, don't the airlines have rigorious training programs of their own which they hire 250 hr pilots but is very difficult to be accepted (college degree etc) into (BA for example and Lufthansa I think) which automatically probably reduces the number of pilots entering the occupation based on the odds of obtaining a major airline career.

There must be a reason why flight training is double the price... If more hours are required, plus probably nearly double or more the fuel price this might easily explain the double price. Just taking a guess because competition usually forces prices down to near their cost in most industries - unless the flight schools are bound to a standard set price or somehow ALL of them are colluding.

[U/S]

The hours required for a licence are very similar but the cost of operating the aircraft is much higher. fuel is more and there is a charge for each touch and go and every time you cross an airway etc... Funny thing is though the fares are much less than here. With much higher salaries, higher operating costs and lower fares you wonder how they make it work but they all do, so what's up here?

[ahramin]

Great sentiment, rediculous idea. Flight training is not a controlled substance. Anyone who can get through the Tranport Canada minimum standard can start a flight school and teach commercial pilots. So talking about raising the rates to improve things for those of us who have already gone through on the cheaper rates makes no sense. Flight training is a free market thing, and the schools don't care (nor should they) about how many commercial pilots they produce. They produce as many as are willing to pay for it - and some pay more than others - which makes perfect sense.

There are not too many pilots out there. There are too many pilots who are dumb enough to pay 60k for a job that starts at $40 a day and works its way up to 60k a year for many. We need more smart pilots, not more pilots who have some way of coming up with the required cash. The smart ones who are not discouraged by 60k may very well be discouraged by 150k. The ones who haven't thought the current 60k through are no more likely to think 150k through.

Think about the way NavCanada hires air traffic controllers. They hand it over to an organization that knows little about air traffic control, and who has a mandate to weed out the less serious candidates. Air traffic controllers should be very smart people, and then should posess a long list of skills like quick math and good memory. Guess what, people like this have other options than to become air traffic controllers. So if they have a choice between becoming engineers or air traffic controllers, are they going to choose the school that offers them a scholarship, or the school that pisses them off on purpose to see how commited they are? Same thing applies for pilots: If you have a mandate to reduce the number of pilots, you do it by raising standards, not by raising factors that loose you the best and the brightest.

[172pilot]

The hours required for a licence are very similar but the cost of operating the aircraft is much higher. fuel is more and there is a charge for each touch and go and every time you cross an airway etc... Funny thing is though the fares are much less than here. With much higher salaries, higher operating costs and lower fares you wonder how they make it work but they all do, so what's up here?

Maybe taxes on fares are lower. Here we pay sometimes close to 100% tax on the fare. 89$ quickly becomes 150$ (or is it more?) with fees and taxes. Even in the US, the taxes and fees seem to be much lower compared to Canada.

As for limiting entry for pilots, I'd have to agree that raising the price is not the best method. Maybe min education and some entry exams for the CPL?

[U/S]

Fair point. Making the courses much harder would have the same effect. While we are at maybe we could do the same thing with driver's licences so Richmond wouldn't be so frikin dangerous

[Cat Driver]

" Maybe min education and some entry exams for the CPL? "

Bang on, the minimum education should be at least grade 8, a few weeks of high school would be a bonus.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There is one significnt difference in the UK/EU. 250 hour wonders do not get to teach the CPL sylabus. CPL and IR instructors tend to be very experienced and are paid accordingly. We could fix this issue in Canada instantly by requiring 500 hours of 703/705 time before beeing allowed to instruct for the CPL. This would kill all the pupply mill flight schools, raise instructor wages to allow a reasonable living and (hopefully) mean new CPL's might actually know asomething about Commercial aviation.

[Kelowna Pilot]

Good ideas, but closing the puppy mill schools will just result in students moving to the schools that are left open.

Best solution is to make it so that in order to start a CPL, you have to pass a selection board. For every 10 that apply, maybe 1 gets in.

[sky's the limit]

If you have a mandate to reduce the number of pilots, you do it by raising standards, not by raising factors that loose you the best and the brightest.

You beat me to it. The standard is the issue, not the money involved.

STL

[skycoupe]

Obviously you havent heard about the latest and greatest coming out of the old country

http://www.halldale.com/Assets/Files/EA ... s/Bell.ppt

http://www.alteontraining.com/firstofficer/mplqa.aspx

[Golden Flyer]

CPL? I say minimum of high school

[Cat Driver]

" CPL? I say minimum of high school "

Sure there is nothing wrong with finishing high school, however there is nothing that a pilot needs to learn that requires any more than basic reading skills and some grasp of basic math.

Formal education is great, but you can make it in the flying world with less than high school.

Hell I made it with far less than high school.

[Axial Flow]

I agree with CAT in the sense that schooling is only as good as the person that applies it.

If we could legislate common sense or at least teach it we would be better off.

[floatpiperdriver]

U/S, I understand your concern for the state of the industry and for paying instructors properly...however, as a farm kid, there would have been no way I would've been able to get a license at the european rates.

I know a lot of people who also had to pay for their flying out of hard labour. These people have gone on to do very well and have definately not made Canadian aviation look like a "universal joke." Upping the price will put an impossible strain on those who work hard for every hour and increase the number of metrosexual-wannabe-airliner-drivers learning to fly who have had everything handed to them and have no idea how to work!

I don't think that monetary status is how pilots should be "deterred" I agree with CAT, education is the way to go.

[Kelowna Pilot]

metrosexual-wannabe-airliner-drivers learning to fly who have had everything handed to them and have no idea how to work!

And the winner for the self-righteous farmer of the year with a chip on his shoulder goes to...

[Doc]

Flying takes grade four math, some computer gaming background, and that's about it. Now, the airlines might want higher education, but if you think you actually NEED it to be a pilot, well...you don't.
Everything I've ever needed to know, I learned in kindergarten! It makes me cry thinking of the three years I wasted in grade six!

[Hoov]

Thats would be great, then rich kids with daddy's money will be the only students. Can't think of a better solution then that....

How people fly has nothing to do with how much they pay, how much their parents have or much the bank will lend them. Sorry please play again.

Edited to add last paragraph

[Speedbird Junior]

I have recently been researching training costs back in the UK, so here are a few fairly accurate bits of info in response to some of the comments on here...

U/S wrote

On completion of his training he told me the very minimum salary he can expect will be 3500 euros a month or $5250 CAD if he is fortunate his first job will pay him almost double that.

Yeah, previously this was the case. Not necessarily so anymore. $5250 a month would equate to about UK£29,000 a year. Unfortunately the industry over there (as here) is being diluted down so that now some of the newbies straight out of school are going onto turbo props on salaries more along the lines of about £20-22K. Factor in the standard of living costs and that ain't all that stunning. Bonding is becoming more prevalent too, as is the ever expanded market of "SSTR" which means, wait for it, deep breath, Self Sponsored Type Rating and runs at about £17,000 ($37,400) for an A320 rating. Very touchy subject indeed.

172 Pilot wrote

Out of curiosity, what does a PPL cost in Europe? How many hours is the min for the license? What is the average price/litre for 100 LL fuel (or their equiv)?

- cost around £5500 with all the add on expenses and average ability (C$12,000)
- 45 Hours min required. Obviously average more.
- Avgas about £1 ($2.20) litre
- All airfields charge landing fees, anywhere from £5-£30 for a single.

MPL - Multi Crew Pilot Licence - greatly opposed in the UK by BALPA (British APLA) and professional pilot associations. Other JAA states are more for it. The airlines will no doubt try to favour it due to the cost savings but its going to take a while to become the main stay of pilot recruitment.

A few other unit costs of commercial training for you:

CPL dual training rate (typical) - PA28-200R £204/hr ($448.80)

Multi Engine - you don't wanna know and I don't wanna look....

UK CAA Flight test fee (examiner) per ride £691 ($1520)

Typical cost for 250hr professional licence from zero (which is a "frozen" ATPL over there - no ATPL exams to write at 1500hrs)

£40-£60,000

[Bobby868]

The issue is not the cost of flight training. The issue is there is no accountability for every commercial pilot that a school produces.

As a former flight instructor I gave this very situation some serious thought and the solution came clear to me.

Becoming a commercial pilot should work like any other trade. Welder, Electrician, plumber; that is, apprenticeship. As a general rule you have one apprentice per journeyman. A person can’t apprentice unless he has a company to sponsor him/her and you can’t move up in level / take schooling until you have achieved x-number of hours of experience.

If commercial pilots had to do a four year apprenticeship program under an ATPL and gain x amount flight hours / experience before graduating to the next year then the industry would only produce as many pilots as were needed / it could bear.

The basic idea is to make it so you can’t get commercial a license unless you have a company or solo ATPL willing to sponsor you. This has the same effect it has with every other trade. It prevents a saturation of the market by people simply buying their trades tickets. It also means that a commercial pilot also has some real experience under their belts by the time they are finished there 4th year instead of now when they just fall out of school and if they are lucky into a C172. Other trades have recognized the benefit of this it’s too bad the aviation industry hasn’t.

[Cat Driver]

Bobby....

There is only one thing wrong with your suggestion.

It makes to much sense.

So TC would never consider it.

[Airtids]

How about add a required course in Ethics and Morals. That should weed out about 80% of the candidates, and make this industry one helluva lot better to work in.

[Jerricho]

Think about the way NavCanada hires air traffic controllers.

I've said this before, and will say it again:

Any idiot can get a pilot's licence...........you have to be a special idiot to get a controller's licence.

[floatpiperdriver]

Hoov: My thoughts exactly!