While we're on about wages....

tellyourkidstogetarealjob · Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:38 am

Duplicate.

tellyourkidstogetarealjob · Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:44 am

Kelowna Pilot wrote:
Air Canada New Hire:

Education: University BA/BS

College perhaps.

Why would anyone get a B.Sc. and then go fly a plane? That's illogical.
That would be admitting to everyone they weren't good enough in their chosen major to be employable.

Here's a simple equation your university educated buddies should have no problem with as it's an adaptation of a 1st year logic lesson:

PREMISE:

IF, Responsibilities: Making sandwiches (well, quickly, and with adherence to safety and sanitation standards) = Making a profit for their employer.

AND, Responsibilities: Multi million dollar aircraft/ peoples lives (performed well, diligently, and with adherence to safety standards) = Making a profit for their employer.

CONCLUSION

THEN, Making sandwiches = Multi million dollar aircraft/ peoples lives.

**********************************************************

I'm sure lots of 'sandwich artists' would love to do something else if they only had tens of thousands to gamble away on a dream.

Looking down your nose at people who perform service jobs for you is no way to go through life.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:13 am

Nobody is stating the jobs are equal in responsibility. Like, give your heads a shake! I was just pointing out....you can make 30 Large, building sandwiches! AND you can make 30 Large flying airplanes, after spending 30-40K for the training, spending 1-2 years working a dock/ramp, a couple of summers flying 185's, two years in the right seat of a Navajo...then, and only then, will you make 30K a year flying airplanes.
That's 2 years (more or less) in a college or flight school.
2 years as a ramp rat.
2 years in the 185 etc.
2 years in a 'ho
THEN the big 30K!.......and only 30K for at least two years at Jazz etc.
That's EIGHT YEARS to GET to 30K.
Meanwhile, the sandwich guy (remember him?) has made TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!! And he's 24 years old, because he started when he was 16.
Oh sure, you made some money as well....and you almost have that 30K plus paid back??
Nobody is suggesting he has more "job satisfaction" than you. But nobody is saying he has less either.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:22 am

Why would anyone get a B.Sc. and then go fly a plane? That's illogical.

Yes, but as a Queen's University Applied Science 1986 grad, I might mention it's a lot of fun:

http://www.pittspecials.com/images/brock_inv1.jpg
http://www.pittspecials.com/images/brock_inv2.jpg
http://www.pittspecials.com/images/brock_inv3.jpg

Kelowna Pilot · Post by **Kelowna Pilot** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:15 pm

College perhaps.

From what I understand most (but not all) AC new hires have bachelors degrees as a min.

Why would anyone get a B.Sc. and then go fly a plane? That's illogical
That would be admitting to everyone they weren't good enough in their chosen major to be employable.

Well, Spock, a career backup, because they want to improve themselves, because going to university is a rite of passage for the middle class, because a lot of airlines want degrees (especially outside of Canada) because perhaps they want to apply to the military, and the list goes on.

Here's a simple equation your university educated buddies should have no problem with as it's an adaptation of a 1st year logic lesson:

PREMISE:

IF, Responsibilities: Making sandwiches (well, quickly, and with adherence to safety and sanitation standards) = Making a profit for their employer.

AND, Responsibilities: Multi million dollar aircraft/ peoples lives (performed well, diligently, and with adherence to safety standards) = Making a profit for their employer.

CONCLUSION

THEN, Making sandwiches = Multi million dollar aircraft/ peoples lives.

Sorry, Spock, that's just plain absurd.

The point of my post was not to demean service sector workers. The point of my post was to point out that the pilots at AC have qualifications that are 1,000 times higher than the guy at Subway, yet the salaries aren't all that different (at least for the first couple years).

Why is this the case? Because working at Subway is a job not many people would want to do.

Flying an Airbus, however, is a job A LOT of people want to do so much in fact that they loose all sense of common sense and reason when someone dangles an airplane in front of their face.

If AC said to you, you can fly the Airbus, but you have to pay us $40,000 for the pleasure and you'll work for free... you would have guys lining up around the street with their money in hand.

A Globe and Mail aviation reporter once commented that the aviation industry is characterized by a very large degree of irrationalism.

It's one of the few statements the Globe got right...

Pilots are really no different than CrackWhores in many ways, and the industry feeds off that.

CD · Post by CD » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:25 pm

Kelowna Pilot wrote:Flying an Airbus, however, is a job A LOT of people want to do...

Bah! Now, if it was a Boeing...

Kelowna Pilot wrote:Pilots are really no different than CrackWhores in many ways, and the industry feeds off that.

kilpicki · Post by **kilpicki** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:04 pm

I just spent a rotation working (aviation) with a drill rig and the guys with equivalant jobs to me are getting USD 800 a day.

Almost enough to make you want to get out of aviation.

Tui · Post by **Tui** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:29 pm

I know many pilots that have had to get off season jobs to pay for their flying addiction. Maybe it's not such a bad idea if there's $800/day jobs for labourers out there.

kilpicki · Post by **kilpicki** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:46 pm

Uhh I didn,t say 800 a day for a labourer

You have to be a senior staff and have some required skills, and certainly not flying skills.

Slappy the Squirrel · Post by **Slappy the Squirrel** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:37 pm

Hey, Look what Subway has done for Jared. They damn well deserve a good salary if they help a man that big lose so much weight!

Switchfoot · Post by **Switchfoot** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:52 am

Doc wrote:A Subway sandwich "artist" in Banf makes THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!! I don't make this shit up!
Pilots.....isn't it time to wake the phuque up?

Yeah, and how about 80-90K per year delivering pop?

(That's a starting wage).

C-FZIT · Post by **C-FZIT** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:07 pm

What we should be doing is comparing ourselves to other professionals like dentists, lawyers, engineers, hygienists, X-Ray techs etc... Most of which have a professional association that governs things like minimum allowable wages, standardized wages and working conditions. For example, a dentist must be a member of the ODA to work in Ontario. The ODA sets standards of what they can charge for a procedure. In order to remain a member of the ODA they must pay their dues and follow the guidelines or not work here.

I'm not saying we deserve to make as much as a dentist, but wouldn't it be nice if we had a similar type of mandatory professional association that could prevent a pilot from having to work for a salary that is considered to be below the poverty line?

Having said all of that, I would rather be a poor pilot then do anything else at this point. Maybe this jobs too much fun.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:02 pm

I'd be interested in that pop gig.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:31 pm

I have a friend who's a linesman with BC Hydro and his 2006 O'TIME cheque was for $70,000. And no, its not as dangerous as a charter pilot who gets less than that as a regular wage. Supply and demand, you lot of uneducated plane drivers!

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:31 am

tellyourkidstogetarealjob wrote: Why would anyone get a B.Sc. and then go fly a plane? That's illogical.
That would be admitting to everyone they weren't good enough in their chosen major to be employable.

I got my degree while taking flying lessons more as a backup than anything else. Now that I'm right into the flying, my degree could open up a management position at which point I'd fire your uneducated ass if I had the chance.

J Roc · Post by **J Roc** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:03 pm

ei ei owe wrote:.... my degree could open up a management position at which point I'd fire your uneducated ass if I had the chance.

At which point he would sue your educated ass....

skyismine · Post by **skyismine** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:33 am

You are pilot because you want to be,you can walk away at any time if you should decide to do so.Yes there are jobs out there that pay more from begining to end.But you do it because you love it.You might grow to hate it one day and then you can walk away.Hang in there...

Ever wonder what those three bars the f.o wears mean???
-Not my responsibility.

The Hammer · Post by **The Hammer** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:16 pm

In Canada three bars stands for "I'm a Whore"

tellyourkidstogetarealjob · Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:07 am

ei ei owe wrote: I got my degree while taking flying lessons more as a backup than anything else. Now that I'm right into the flying, my degree could open up a management position at which point I'd fire your uneducated ass if I had the chance.

I'm sure all the senior management types are shivering at the thought of the damage someone who thinks like that could do.

ei, meet Kelowna. Kelowna, meet ei. He's a snob, too.

Rite of passage for the middle class! Something to fall back on! HORSESHIT!

Most science and applied science degrees are simply too dynamic to be used as a "back up". If you don't get into the field within five years you may as well forget it. If you want to get your Medical Doctor and Professional Engineer (as a back up, of course) buddies to contradict me then I'll concede the point otherwise you're just flattering yourselves.

You'll never agree with this having egos the size you two have but as far as I'm concerned the only "professionals" in this trade are the guys who designed the aircraft in the first place.

Sometimes I'll just gaze a part I've just removed and think, "how the f**k did some lunatic ever think this thing up?", it's a humbling experience. Something you'll never know because HUMILITY is unknown to most of this trade. What really amazed me is most of those guys did it for a lot less than a 747 or 340 captain earns.

Pilots, F/A's, "engineers", rampies, dispatch; you're all just tradesmen. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with an honest tradesman designation. Just keep the bragging to the 18 year old co-eds in the bar who are still dumb enough to believe it.

Aft CofG · Post by **Aft CofG** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:08 pm

Doc:

Didn't you already do the pop gig?

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:26 pm

Nice photos, Hedley. That aircraft is truly a jewel.

Rarely in this business does education impress an employer. Usually a degree is only used as a way to initially screen the candidates. Air Canada asks for one; corporate operators in particular prefer it; my current employer wanted one. Mind you, I've never 'used' it, except to get a better job.

Its true that we are tradesmen. Now if I could just get plumber's wages....

FlowPack · Post by **FlowPack** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:36 pm

I got a call the other day from my old boss. From the job I did to pay for this flying bizness. Not whoring. Not technically. But he's willing to pay me 8 TIMES what I make on this turbine gig.
8 fu.king times as much.
FU.K
A tight little a$$ with double D's calling my name from her four poster bed after a 4month suasage party up north doesn't reallly even compare to the temptation I have right now....

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:34 pm

Doc wrote:THEN the big 30K!.......and only 30K for at least two years at Jazz etc.
That's EIGHT YEARS to GET to 30K.

Sorry Doc. but you gotta get your facts straight.

1st Year @ Jazz 35.1K
2nd Year is 42K

Those are based on a 75 hours credit per month. Most guys are getting 80 hr plus.

Plus, $600-$800 hours perdiem a month. Do the math is a hell of a lot more than 30K

Yeah I know, the salary @ Jazz is not what you would call stellar to begin. For what we do it is pathetic. But it is a hell of alot better that what you would make at Subway. And assuming that you don't get on with AC or WJ etc and stay at Jazz. You will break 100K eventually. You wll never do that a subway.

mark_ · Post by **mark_** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:55 am

Guys...do little kids hang around the sandwich shop dreaming to someday make a sandwich ? Are they willing to give up everything in order to fullfill their dream? Are they the envy of all their friends? If they don't go down that road when they were young, do they regret it every day for the rest of the lives?

C'mon guys, YOU FLY! I would do anything to trade places with you...and I make twice as much as the sandwich guy.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:25 am

Dark Helmet...WOW! I had no idea you guys were raking in that kind of bread! WE are mighty impressed, let us tell you! 35.1K! That's really remarkable! After several years and 40-60K in training costs, several (Okay, a couple) years sucking up to folks at 7.50$ an hour on a ramp/dock somewhere. A couple of years freezing your tail off in the north in the right seat of a Ho/99/whathaveyou. And perhaps a year flying dead fish or minnows in a bagged out float plane......Now you're making the "big bucks" dealiong with captains like "MC"....By the time you got to Jazz, the sandwich maker owns a condo on a ski hill in BC......but I'm happy that you're happy!

While we're on about wages....

Re: While we're on about wages....