Why keep the brain dead/damaged alive?
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taxiway_matthew
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the_professor
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She's never been able to function at all. Can't eat, can't sit up, can't do @#$!-all. What is the point of that?taxiway_matthew wrote:Just because they can no longer function at a full capacity doesn't mean they're in any way less dignified then they were while they were fully capable
We would shoot a horse or a dog that found themselves in the same state, and yet somehow it is seen to make sense to keep a vegetable alive.
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Glen Quagmire
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There is a significant difference between someone who is brain damaged and someone who is brain dead. Saying someone who is brain dead is comparable to a person with a disability or a criminal is ridiculous, it's a dishonest approach to an honest question.
So cloudcounter are you saying that god is obsolete in today's society? Those passages quoted above are verbatim out of the bible and not taken out of context. Your quote is rhetorical and somewhat at odds with god's earlier view of "little ones". Can an omnipotent god be at odds with himself? Or was he simply more immature in his early "death to all but the Israelite years". Or maybe the Old Testament was written by man, who needed to justify their brutal murderous actions, it's ok to slaughter women and children if god gave me the green light right? The Old Testament is largely an embarrassment, that's why it is rarely mentioned by religious people, they stick to the universal love found in the new testament. Although a boil your water so you don't die verse would have come in handy with the love message but ah well.
Anyway here is God's view of the handicapped, fairly shocking.
(NIV)Leviticus 21:16-23 The LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the LORD. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.' "
So cloudcounter are you saying that god is obsolete in today's society? Those passages quoted above are verbatim out of the bible and not taken out of context. Your quote is rhetorical and somewhat at odds with god's earlier view of "little ones". Can an omnipotent god be at odds with himself? Or was he simply more immature in his early "death to all but the Israelite years". Or maybe the Old Testament was written by man, who needed to justify their brutal murderous actions, it's ok to slaughter women and children if god gave me the green light right? The Old Testament is largely an embarrassment, that's why it is rarely mentioned by religious people, they stick to the universal love found in the new testament. Although a boil your water so you don't die verse would have come in handy with the love message but ah well.
Anyway here is God's view of the handicapped, fairly shocking.
(NIV)Leviticus 21:16-23 The LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the LORD. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.' "
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cloudcounter
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Glen,
I dont think I equated the person to disabled or criminal but I did say that we have no right to kill people who are inconvenient and God will hold all accountable who do so.
God does approve of capital punishment though which good governments do.
How can you think that I am saying God is obsolete? lol
God is alive and well and not confused as your assumptions appear to be.
He kills and makes alive and has all right to do so- it is His creation.
He is also the God of love and mercy but his justice demanded blood sacrifice for our rebellious act in the garden of eden that brought in the curse.
So He came down the innocent to die for the guilty and proved the payment made in full for sin by rising from the dead.
If you understand that and accept christ for it then you will have his book opened to you - untill then no go - just conjecture.
He said to another person like yourself many years ago:
''can the pot know the potter ''so who are we to critisize Him for his ways?
I love the old testament and have no problem with it because I have the key from him to understand it .
No faith- no key.
No Jesus -No peace
Know Jesus- Know Peace
So whats so shocking about not letting the unholy near the temple?
Makes sence because God will not abide sin . Nor will he abide you or anyman who does not come to Him covered by His blood instead of their rotton righteousness.
You need to talk to Jesus if you want into the club
untill then you are lost in the 'matrix'
cc
I dont think I equated the person to disabled or criminal but I did say that we have no right to kill people who are inconvenient and God will hold all accountable who do so.
God does approve of capital punishment though which good governments do.
How can you think that I am saying God is obsolete? lol
God is alive and well and not confused as your assumptions appear to be.
He kills and makes alive and has all right to do so- it is His creation.
He is also the God of love and mercy but his justice demanded blood sacrifice for our rebellious act in the garden of eden that brought in the curse.
So He came down the innocent to die for the guilty and proved the payment made in full for sin by rising from the dead.
If you understand that and accept christ for it then you will have his book opened to you - untill then no go - just conjecture.
He said to another person like yourself many years ago:
''can the pot know the potter ''so who are we to critisize Him for his ways?
I love the old testament and have no problem with it because I have the key from him to understand it .
No faith- no key.
No Jesus -No peace
Know Jesus- Know Peace
So whats so shocking about not letting the unholy near the temple?
Makes sence because God will not abide sin . Nor will he abide you or anyman who does not come to Him covered by His blood instead of their rotton righteousness.
You need to talk to Jesus if you want into the club
untill then you are lost in the 'matrix'
cc
Glen Quagmire wrote:There is a significant difference between someone who is brain damaged and someone who is brain dead. Saying someone who is brain dead is comparable to a person with a disability or a criminal is ridiculous, it's a dishonest approach to an honest question.
So cloudcounter are you saying that god is obsolete in today's society? Those passages quoted above are verbatim out of the bible and not taken out of context. Your quote is rhetorical and somewhat at odds with god's earlier view of "little ones". Can an omnipotent god be at odds with himself? Or was he simply more immature in his early "death to all but the Israelite years". Or maybe the Old Testament was written by man, who needed to justify their brutal murderous actions, it's ok to slaughter women and children if god gave me the green light right? The Old Testament is largely an embarrassment, that's why it is rarely mentioned by religious people, they stick to the universal love found in the new testament. Although a boil your water so you don't die verse would have come in handy with the love message but ah well.
Anyway here is God's view of the handicapped, fairly shocking.
(NIV)Leviticus 21:16-23 The LORD said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the LORD. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.' "
Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
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TopperHarley
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cloudcounter
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Or.. don't interrupt my dream?SkyWolfe wrote:...words... you know what those words were? Please kill me.
....
Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
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the_professor
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It's not just about being inconvenient and astronomically expensive...cloudcounter wrote:Glen,
I dont think I equated the person to disabled or criminal but I did say that we have no right to kill people who are inconvenient and God will hold all accountable who do so.
We can use modern medicine to aid injured/sick people to recover either completely, or at least partially after an accident or sickness, and they continue to be productive and meaningful. But should we be using it to keep vegetables alive? People who have no hope of ever making any sort of contribution to the world, aside from giving their parents some sort of bizarre satisfaction? People who have the same capacities, literally, as a plant.
Nature would never have allowed these "people" to survive beyond birth.
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cloudcounter
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Musta been a Morman Bible WC
Take it from me- He did . No one else could.
Joh 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak what we know and testify what we have seen. And you do not receive our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
So there is a risen man in Heaven right now that will be coming back to rule and reign in His own good time
Take it from me- He did . No one else could.
Joh 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak what we know and testify what we have seen. And you do not receive our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.
So there is a risen man in Heaven right now that will be coming back to rule and reign in His own good time
Wild Cat wrote:I'm sorry cloudcounter, but I believe you are wrong.
I've read the Bible, and I cant find anywhere that says that God came down to earth to make payment for sins.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that.
Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
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cloudcounter
- Rank 5
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:14 pm
- Location: Heavenly places/Down here
Poor logic - what if we discover medical means to resusitate them just after we decided they are cluttering up rooms and sucking cash that could better used for new stadiums or maybe gay retreats ?
or ..What if the ruling powers decide you Sir, are serving no earthly purpose and send you a black invitation?
Sanctity should be the swing vote I think
cc
or ..What if the ruling powers decide you Sir, are serving no earthly purpose and send you a black invitation?
Sanctity should be the swing vote I think
cc
the_professor wrote:It's not just about being inconvenient and astronomically expensive...cloudcounter wrote:Glen,
I dont think I equated the person to disabled or criminal but I did say that we have no right to kill people who are inconvenient and God will hold all accountable who do so.
We can use modern medicine to aid injured/sick people to recover either completely, or at least partially after an accident or sickness, and they continue to be productive and meaningful. But should we be using it to keep vegetables alive? People who have no hope of ever making any sort of contribution to the world, aside from giving their parents some sort of bizarre satisfaction? People who have the same capacities, literally, as a plant.
Nature would never have allowed these "people" to survive beyond birth.
Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
I know that Jesus came to earth.
but help me out here.
Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus is God?
I've read the Bible and I cant find a passage that says that Jesus is God!
Jesus always refers to someone above that is superior to him.
doesn't that contradict the trinity?
all is even?
I'm not looking for a debate, I'm just a sincere person with this question.
but help me out here.
Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus is God?
I've read the Bible and I cant find a passage that says that Jesus is God!
Jesus always refers to someone above that is superior to him.
doesn't that contradict the trinity?
all is even?
I'm not looking for a debate, I'm just a sincere person with this question.
Your One Darn Good Pilot
Re: Why keep the brain dead/damaged alive?
You obviously don't have kidsthe_professor wrote:This is not a troll, it is a question based on the link below that I'd like to see debated.
If a person cannot eat on their own, cannot talk, cannot maintain eye contact, cannot bathe themselves, cannot move, etc, etc, etc, then what is the point of keeping them alive?
What does the person or society gain by expending the enormous resources required?
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/01/04/ashley.html
Leo.
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TopperHarley
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John 14: 6-14... ".... Anyone who has seen me has seen the father.... Don't you believe that I am in the father and that the father is in me... believe me when I say that I am in the father and the father is in me."Wild Cat wrote:I know that Jesus came to earth.
but help me out here.
Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus is God?
I've read the Bible and I cant find a passage that says that Jesus is God!
Jesus always refers to someone above that is superior to him.
doesn't that contradict the trinity?
all is even?
I'm not looking for a debate, I'm just a sincere person with this question.
Not sure if that scripture is what you are looking for. There is another quote in John 14:28 where Jesus claims that the father is "greater" than himself. I don't really understand the concept of the trinity myself, but there are scriptures that claim Jesus was with God for creation (the beginning of John, Colossians 1:15-21, etc).
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TopperHarley
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- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:56 pm
There is a double-standard when it comes to this issue I believe. Christians argue that it is "playing God" if we decide to let someone who is suffering tremendously with no chance whatsoever of recovering, to die in peace. Yet they argue that we should keep these people alive by artificial means. Are we not "playing God" by trying to keep these people alive?cloudcounter wrote:Poor logic - what if we discover medical means to resusitate them just after we decided they are cluttering up rooms and sucking cash that could better used for new stadiums or maybe gay retreats ?
or ..What if the ruling powers decide you Sir, are serving no earthly purpose and send you a black invitation?
Sanctity should be the swing vote I think
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cloudcounter
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Good question!
He did say ' before Abraham was, I AM'.
The I AM constitutes in Hebrew : GOD.
Even most of His disciples didnt pick up on it untill He rose from the dead . Peter by revelation from the Father twigged on Jesus as the Messiah that all men look for. The Catholics ran with this on a 'pope/mary' trip but God is not found in a building or by any priest except the High priest of all Creation Jesus! He forsaw that greedy ball of wax and said- 'No man comes unto the Father except by me'
and 'call no man Father'.
So if one has that revelation of Christ as God [ born again] then he is in , as they say, as Christ is the head of the Church built without hands and the believers are the living stones.
Mind you neither did the Temple priests realise that- He came to His own and they knew Him not but they sure did fear his screwing up the temple busine$$ lol
Still happening .
CC
if you really want to get into it a good study free download is at
http://www.e-sword.net/
ps That also makes God Jewish!
He did say ' before Abraham was, I AM'.
The I AM constitutes in Hebrew : GOD.
Even most of His disciples didnt pick up on it untill He rose from the dead . Peter by revelation from the Father twigged on Jesus as the Messiah that all men look for. The Catholics ran with this on a 'pope/mary' trip but God is not found in a building or by any priest except the High priest of all Creation Jesus! He forsaw that greedy ball of wax and said- 'No man comes unto the Father except by me'
and 'call no man Father'.
So if one has that revelation of Christ as God [ born again] then he is in , as they say, as Christ is the head of the Church built without hands and the believers are the living stones.
Mind you neither did the Temple priests realise that- He came to His own and they knew Him not but they sure did fear his screwing up the temple busine$$ lol
Still happening .
CC
if you really want to get into it a good study free download is at
http://www.e-sword.net/
ps That also makes God Jewish!
C-HRIS wrote:John 14: 6-14... ".... Anyone who has seen me has seen the father.... Don't you believe that I am in the father and that the father is in me... believe me when I say that I am in the father and the father is in me."Wild Cat wrote:I know that Jesus came to earth.
but help me out here.
Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus is God?
I've read the Bible and I cant find a passage that says that Jesus is God!
Jesus always refers to someone above that is superior to him.
doesn't that contradict the trinity?
all is even?
I'm not looking for a debate, I'm just a sincere person with this question.
Not sure if that scripture is what you are looking for. There is another quote in John 14:28 where Jesus claims that the father is "greater" than himself. I don't really understand the concept of the trinity myself, but there are scriptures that claim Jesus was with God for creation (the beginning of John, Colossians 1:15-21, etc).
Last edited by cloudcounter on Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
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cloudcounter
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- Posts: 309
- Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:14 pm
- Location: Heavenly places/Down here
Yeah, but who's standard?
Recall reading of a young man who was so called brain dead in a coma for months- he awoke one day!
Good thing the plug pullers didnt get to him.
We shouldan't underestimate the power of prayer as well - not usually what the medical community puts store by but God does.
Are we not 'playing god' by murdering the unborn?
cc
Recall reading of a young man who was so called brain dead in a coma for months- he awoke one day!
Good thing the plug pullers didnt get to him.
We shouldan't underestimate the power of prayer as well - not usually what the medical community puts store by but God does.
Are we not 'playing god' by murdering the unborn?
cc
C-HRIS wrote:There is a double-standard when it comes to this issue I believe. Christians argue that it is "playing God" if we decide to let someone who is suffering tremendously with no chance whatsoever of recovering, to die in peace. Yet they argue that we should keep these people alive by artificial means. Are we not "playing God" by trying to keep these people alive?cloudcounter wrote:Poor logic - what if we discover medical means to resusitate them just after we decided they are cluttering up rooms and sucking cash that could better used for new stadiums or maybe gay retreats ?
or ..What if the ruling powers decide you Sir, are serving no earthly purpose and send you a black invitation?
Sanctity should be the swing vote I think
Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
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cloudcounter
- Rank 5
- Posts: 309
- Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:14 pm
- Location: Heavenly places/Down here
Hey Wildcat
Which of the 66 books did you get stuck in? Gen1?
And what version of the readers digest?
Curious.
Anyway just to encourage you , you dont have a hope of understanding it unless you take Christ your saviour on faith.
CC
Which of the 66 books did you get stuck in? Gen1?
And what version of the readers digest?
Curious.
Anyway just to encourage you , you dont have a hope of understanding it unless you take Christ your saviour on faith.
CC
Wild Cat wrote:I'm sorry cloudcounter, but I believe you are wrong.
I've read the Bible, and I cant find anywhere that says that God came down to earth to make payment for sins.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that.
Koran 5:33
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of ..snip
If Truth be not your goal,
you have achieved your gaol.
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
IMHO...
The world could do with a few less people...
there are too many of them... a good pandemic is just what we need... and some will say.. "oh what about you mom, dad, sister and little old granny? you would like to see them go?"
No... i wouldnt... though, the state of the world today.. so many are suffering as it is... and the way we are going? well there will be a lot more suffering when the air is unbreathable, and the ground is unfarmable, and everything stops working.. evenutally we will all have cancer from all of our own pollutants.. and we will all be a bunch of kemo sucking.. pill popping... tube living desperate to survive veggies...
Ok so that is a bit extreme.. but its an extreme version based on a pretty true outcome (like i said if things continue)...
so at some point.. ya i think we all need to let go. I know that I would want my tube pulled.. otherwise, I would simply be something that eats poops and sucks more electricity, uses up more resources.. (i.e. the gas in the car people drive to visit me.. or the fossil fuels to produce the energy to light my hospital ward etc)... resources that already are coming soon to a shortage..
Survival of the fittest... not survival of those with the best health plan and most sentimental attatched relatives..
The world could do with a few less people...
there are too many of them... a good pandemic is just what we need... and some will say.. "oh what about you mom, dad, sister and little old granny? you would like to see them go?"
No... i wouldnt... though, the state of the world today.. so many are suffering as it is... and the way we are going? well there will be a lot more suffering when the air is unbreathable, and the ground is unfarmable, and everything stops working.. evenutally we will all have cancer from all of our own pollutants.. and we will all be a bunch of kemo sucking.. pill popping... tube living desperate to survive veggies...
Ok so that is a bit extreme.. but its an extreme version based on a pretty true outcome (like i said if things continue)...
so at some point.. ya i think we all need to let go. I know that I would want my tube pulled.. otherwise, I would simply be something that eats poops and sucks more electricity, uses up more resources.. (i.e. the gas in the car people drive to visit me.. or the fossil fuels to produce the energy to light my hospital ward etc)... resources that already are coming soon to a shortage..
Survival of the fittest... not survival of those with the best health plan and most sentimental attatched relatives..
Lost Cessna Pilot: "Big airport with a little Cessna 150 overhead, please identify yourself!"
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