Stupid Students, or is it Stupid Teachers

[Northern Flyer]

Who's training pilots now days?

On the climb out from YWG today some guy in a 172 calls up departure and asks "Can you tell me where I am?" WTF???

He was 7 miles from Steinbach and lost already. Aren't pilots even trained to use an ADF nowdays? Are they sent on solo cross countrys with out a map?

I've never been lost before. There have been times were I didn't know where I was for a little while, but the last thing I would do is call up center and ask them were the hell I was.

Anyhow, all you 200 hour instructors out there use your head if my student had to call for help seven miles from home I would be embarassed, and realize that I have failed that particular student. In the days of GPS this might sound funny but there are NDB's everywere, all aircraft have an ADF, you tune in the frequency and the needle point to were you want to go, how much simpler can you get.

[LT]

Not to insult your Grace, but isn't it possible he just wanted to know "where he was?" POI?

Whenever I'm flying anywhere and I'm requested to call over the stacks, race-way, bridge, etc. I just tell them, not familiar and they tell me to call XX dme N-S-E-W of the field..

Maybe the pilot just wanted to know if he was over said landmark??

(Hey, last time I didn't stand up for the guy who ran out of fuel and assumed it's not smart to be running out of fuel, so this time I'm sticking up for our "lost" friend, so if you have problems with this positive remark I give the fark up, there's no pleasing you)

*For Shitdisturber

[shitdisturber]

You spelled "there's" wrong.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Right Seat Captain]

If you can use your ADF to find yourself if you're lost, why can't you ask departure or any other radar equipped ATC? It's a lot faster than tuning in an NDB and trying to triangulate yourself. And not all aircraft have ADFs anyways. Sure I'll admit only being 7 miles away from a major center may be a little ridiculous. However I for one tell my students if they ever get lost on their PPL X-country, call up terminal and ask where you are, and for help if they need it. I'd rather see them coming home, rather than in a forest hanging from a tree.

[W5]

Maybe he was being taught RESOURCE management. Left the crew out

[. .]

i'd say the majority of training aircraft i've ever seen haven't been equipped with any navaids. perhaps he was flying one of those? perhaps he was going solo to the practice area for the first time with about a dozen hours? perhaps he was a poorly trained idiot? who knows.

[DiscoDashSeven]

I've never been lost before. There have been times were I didn't know where I was for a little while, but the last thing I would do is call up center and ask them were the hell I was.

Thats the last thing you'd do? Maybe we should ask who did your training?

Don't let your pride get the best of you.

[LT]

Maybe we should ask who did your training?

Don't let your pride get the best of you.

Don't think it's pride, maybe it is some instructors who teach their students, not to trouble ATC??

Maybe some student is scared that it'll some how go on their record and tarnish his career?

Another student is obviously wants to be safe and asks "where he is."

As long as we come home from a flight in one piece lets not worry how the task is accomplished.

[H]

[quote]but the last thing I would do is call up center and ask them were the hell I was.[/quote]

Sounds like this low-time pilot is more resourceful than you, NF . Give him credit for 'asking when in doubt, instead of criticism. It's a good thing you don't instruct, you need a CRM course.

[mikegtzg]

Hey people, give the student pilot a break. If he flew out from Steinbach he/she was likely one of there 'Cadets' students. Likely 16 or 17 yrs. old, and probably hasn't driven a car long enough to know the city that well. let alone recognize common landmarks from the air. At least he/she asked for some assistance before something bad happened.

[Panama Jack]

There have been times were I didn't know where I was for a little while, but the last thing I would do is call up center and ask them were the hell I was.

And that is where the trouble sometimes only begins. . . .

Me not knowing the lay of the land out there, perhaps he was concerned about flying into somebody's airspace. I am sure ATC preferred a call like this than watching an identified target zig-zag through their airspace and getting traffic to clear the path. Now adays, it might even warrant a call to scramble the CF-18's.

This thread sounds a little like the "N Number" rant.

[N2]

Yep sure could sound like an N number rant! I just get a kick out of watching some report over a town that is nowhere near them. Don't report over a town that your 5 miles away from, call position 5 miles in what ever direction the town is! ie. 5 miles west of $&*%&*.

[Zatopec]

Keep in mind that student enrolled for the Recreational pilot licence (I don't know if it's the case here) do not have to be taught instruments at all. Not only flying the aircraft in reference to basic flight instruments, but also no navaids training at all. So if a particular aircraft isn't GPS equiped, the only other remaining tools are the VFR chart, and then ATC. The pilot clearly needs extra training on reading and using his map but he nonetheless made the right thing by asking ATC to help him out before he ran into more troubles or a busy airspace. Somewhat good decision making.

[corn-shoot]

I've never been lost before. There have been times were I didn't know where I was for a little while, but the last thing I would do is call up center and ask them were the hell I was.
.

Well maybe the student learned a valuable lesson from it, and if that's the case, no big deal. Just so I know, what operational impact did it have on you, your holiness?

[Mitch Cronin]

Was monitoring a Unicom one very hazy day at our local little airport and got a call from an old guy flying his own little birdie...:
- "Markham Unicom, can you tell me where I am?"

-"Uhhh... well, I really haven't any idea, can you tell me what you see below you?"

[pause]....."I see a church!" [much laughter and peanut gallery comments in the clubhouse]

... after a few more futile attempts to get him to identify his surroundings, I gave him the frequency of the nearest control tower that could offer him a DF steer (Oshawa)....
Eventually, through their assistance, he finds his way, lands and taxi's to the gas pumps where I go out to greet him and say: "Welcome to Greenbank!"... I think I nearly killed him with that... he turned white as a ghost!

[LT]

"Welcome to Greenbank!"... I think I nearly killed him with that... he turned white as a ghost!

You should have given him the bill for the landing while you were at it..

[FamilyGuy]

Student pilots should definately be taught navigational awareness before they are sent out on a solo - Cadets included - I was!! There is no excuse for a student pilot getting lost on a solo x-country - except sub standard training/instructor standards.
However, just because an alleged student pilot asks ATC where he/she is does not mean that they are lost. The original poster did not provide enough info to deduce what really happened, but many replies have covered the gambit of reasonable explanations.
Most disturbing in this thread is the thought that pilots should not use ATC and their radar to assist where required. WTF over??? Whats next? "To prove you are a "real" pilot I want you to fly from Comox to Regina without using a map or compass. That's the way we did it in 1912 so you can too." Pu u u leeeze.

Theres a fine line between standing on the river bank fishing and just looking stupid.

[W5]

I remember very well finding myself in a formation of 4, in marginal VFR, over East Germany during the Cold War. ATC was no help!
S*it happens.

[. ._]

One can always ask for the "practice DF steer", then if it's denied, "OK, a REAL DF steer." Gives you a chance to save face, AND it's safe!

-istp

[Shiny Side Up]

You spelled "there's" wrong.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Now you've even got other people in here doing your dirty work!

Never gotten lost... That's a good one. Expecting that students with less than 30 hours aren't going to do anything stupid is even better. Obviously Mr. Northern Flyer has never instructed. I'd give our lost student credit here, he had the balls to call for help when he knew he fucked up, rather than let the mistake turn into a bigger problem.

You'll back me up on this one, right Sdisturber?

[Arrow]

A student getting disoriented, man it happens. I remember doing my solo cross-country out of YYC in 1985 and getting a tad lost. Had to buzz a grain elevator to get my bearings. Thought I was a real tool and that I should give up flying all together. Well within 2 years I was flying 185's and Beaver's from YZF and YHY to YBK, or YCB, or wherever, before GPS. So moral of the story is maybe we should cut that student some slack. And my instructer, an awesome, talented dude who I hold the utmost respect for. Oh yeah, and a personal pet peeve, I really hate the word stupid. Although I think my wife likes it cause she sure uses it a lot.

[Northern Flyer]

Well there have been alot of interesting replies, I trained in Dauphin MB. There is no low level radar coverage that I know of there. My point is if you folks could see past the perimeter highway you would realize that most of MB is not covered, so who's going to lead you home?

Your right I have never been an instructer, but if I had to be, I would make sure my students could travel to the practice area, and return to the base without radar vecters. I have flown many planes from different flight schools in MB and every single one of them had an ADF. I'm not saying the guy has to triangulate his position, but put in the proper frequence and the needle points home, right.

corn-shoot, there was no operational impact on me, thats not the point.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Supposedly true story about a SOCAL PPL

Pilot: I am kind of lost could you help me out ?

ATC: Squwk XXXX

Pilot: The transponder doesn't seem to be working.

ATC: OK where were you when you were last sure of your position.

Pilot: hold short of runway 34...

[shitdisturber]

You spelled "there's" wrong.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Now you've even got other people in here doing your dirty work!

Never gotten lost... That's a good one. Expecting that students with less than 30 hours aren't going to do anything stupid is even better. Obviously Mr. Northern Flyer has never instructed. I'd give our lost student credit here, he had the balls to call for help when he knew he fucked up, rather than let the mistake turn into a bigger problem.

You'll back me up on this one, right Sdisturber?

Why would I back you up on that one? I so enjoyed our little jaunt to butt @#$! nowhere to recover the airplane. I can't wait to do it again!

[margaritaville]

Northern Flyer,

First of all, not ALL aircraft have an ADF. Whether or not the aircraft is equipped with a 'functioning' ADF is another matter.

Secondly, in my experience instructing, and I've been at this for a while, not many student pilots are proficient using an ADF initially.

Thirdly, seeing as you've never been lost (although never say never) it is ridiculous not to teach your students to use all available resources - this includes ATC.

As for your last comment on the 200 hr. instructors - hey man, instructors do their best. Keep in mind the student of a 10, 000 hr ACE instructor has just as much of a chance of getting lost as the student of a 200 hr one. If anything, I was more thorough when I was a new instructor - sometimes 'overkilling' information for students. You can teach a student everything under the sun, but as the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
Bravo to this guy for getting help when he needed it and not letting pride cloud his judgement.