Love'em or Hate'em

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:53 pm

As most of you know by now, I started hanging out here after I lost my husband in a crash trying to get a sense of the aviation industry, and to ask questions of people I might not otherwise have access to.

It has become clear that there are a lot of people who are not very happy about the way things are run at Transport Canada. What I'm not clear on is whether that it is minority or a majority of you who are dissatisfied (My impression of the answer may be clouded by my own feelings). So, I would like to find out:

Do you love TC?
Do you hate TC?
Do you not care about TC?
Should I shut up and take a chill pill?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:08 pm

Are you related to Cat??
With all due respect(why do I say that?)I'm not really happy about this poll. TC, regardless of how some of us feel about them (one way or the other) is our government's regulatory body. We are an aviation forum. We are an open forum, and some of us can have pretty strong opinions. I don't think a poll of how much we "hate" anybody has any place here.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:21 pm

I guess that means your vote would be shut up and take a chill pill? I'm really just trying to get a sense of whether it is a consensus that there are serious problems, or if it is just in my head. Shall I remove the poll?

rsandor · Post by **rsandor** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:27 pm

One thing you should know about pilots (not sure if your husband was like this) but most of us are whiney bitches with a superiority complex. I mean afterall, most pilots go through a lot of crap when starting their career, get paid dirt for the first few years, and rarely get the recognition they deserve for the amount of responsibilites they have. Thus, we feel we have a right to rant about things on a regular basis, no matter how trivial. You will find that pilots do not stop complaining about the aviation industry until they are sitting left seat on a jumbo jet, and then they start complaining about their new stock that ain't doing so great.

We may complain a lot about things, but it could be much worse, and is much worse in many other countries. I would think most people are just fine with TC until the moment TC has a problem with something they've done.

Also, Widow, it's clear that you are fishing for things to ding TC on. I don't know the circumstances surrounding your husband's death, and I understand if you feel that TC has not done enough for you, but going around and trying to blame them for everything and anything is not going to help at all, it will only make you bitter. You must try to remain objective, as hard as that will be.

Take care!
Rich

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:30 pm

It's your call. I don't think it's in the best of taste, but that's just me? Just seems to be enough TC bashing already. You just have to know we're not going to get any positive votes. And guys like TC Guy have been pretty helpful to some of us on the forum.

Human Factor · Post by **Human Factor** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:31 pm

My only problem with TC is that they're never around when you need an answer but come down like a load of bricks when a mistake is made.

What happened to the good old days when local TC inspectors would pop by the hangar for a coffee and ask if they could be of any assistance?

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:55 pm

Doc wrote:It's your call. I don't think it's in the best of taste, but that's just me? Just seems to be enough TC bashing already. You just have to know we're not going to get any positive votes. And guys like TC Guy have been pretty helpful to some of us on the forum.

I would take it off, but it doesn't come up under the edit feature for the message???

I think the "I don't cares" and "take a chill pills" mean they are ok with the way things are.

I also agree that TC Guy has posted lots of good stuff, CD too, whoever he is.

I don't think TC is all bad myself. I'm worried about it, but I'm worried about a lot of things. For me, the problem is specific to oversight of air taxis involved in transporting loggers, and I don't know if it is a worm that has spread throughout the system, or if it is relatively isolated. I don't think that should all be TC's job anyway. I think there is a problem with the workers compensation act which insures but doesn't regulate (protect).

With all the things the operator and potentially the AMO did wrong in my husbands accident, I don't understand how they got away with it. I don't understand why an inspection of the company wasn't done right after the accident instead of waiting over six months (by which time they'd fixed most of the problems, which eventually made them go broke).

I'm trying to figure out what really needs to be changed, and what can be left alone.

Maybe TC doesn't belong on the list of agencies which need to make changes?

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:25 am

Doc wrote:It's your call. I don't think it's in the best of taste, but that's just me? Just seems to be enough TC bashing already. You just have to know we're not going to get any positive votes. And guys like TC Guy have been pretty helpful to some of us on the forum.

I appreciate that Doc.

I post here because I believe it is in the interest of the aviation industry in this country that someone from TC actually posts here to give a (limited!) inside perspective.

I am also a member here to see what is important to our clients... to (hopefully) do my job better.

I do believe very honestly that a vast majority of people in the public service genuinely care... but we do tend to get the pre-judged. I does make our job more difficult.

I deal with many people every day... and (I hope) a vast majority of them feel like they have been treated with the respect they deserve... and fairly.

BTW, I am the only vote that says I love TC... fair enough.

-Guy

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:29 am

Widow wrote:I'm trying to figure out what really needs to be changed, and what can be left alone.

(Please understand, I am not being sarcastic here)... when you figure that out, please let me know.

It is really not black and white.

-Guy

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:30 am

Try wording it something like:

I think TC is generally doing a good job
I think TC is not doing a good job and needs an overhaul
I do not perceive a problem with TC

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:13 am

TC Guy wrote:

It does make our job more difficult

Speaking of making someone's job more difficult ... I am a Canadian citizen. I can fly airshows in the United States, the Carribean, Central America, etc but your loving Transport has quite illegally "banned for life" my airshow team from ever performing at another airshow in Canada.

How would you feel if the government illegally obstructed you from earning a living in your country, and quite openly tried to force you to leave the country?

Where in the Aeronautics Act is the government empowered to drive people out of the country?

Am I supposed to "love" a government that arrogantly abuses it's citizens? I'm sure you'd agree that I'd be pretty stupid if I did.

neilaroberts · Post by **neilaroberts** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:27 am

I have had pretty decent contact with TC in my 10 year stint in the industry. Sure, they come out with some pretty silly things from time to time, but they have been pretty helpful in some respects as well. So sure, I may bitch about the never-ending beauracracy, nonsensical legislation, and things that are often enough to make me want to swear; but at the same time, there have been good relationships there as well.

It is what it is.

Cheers,

Neil

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:57 am

No one seems to address the question of why TCCA can with impunity break and disregard the very laws they are sworn to uphold?

Answer that and we may be getting somewhere.

Quote rsandor:

" I would think most people are just fine with TC until the moment TC has a problem with something they've done. "

You failed to mention how we should react when it is TC who has done something wrong.

Are we to just bend over and take it like good little citizens just because TC thinks they are unacountable?

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:02 am

TC Guy wrote:
Widow wrote:I'm trying to figure out what really needs to be changed, and what can be left alone.
(Please understand, I am not being sarcastic here)... when you figure that out, please let me know.

It is really not black and white.

-Guy

I agree that it's not all black and white TC Guy, but I also believe there is ample evidence that air taxi ops involved in transporting loggers have been able to get away with "murder" over the years. Nobody cares. Just a bunch of dumb loggers after all.

I don't know if the problem is rooted in TC, or if it is a result of the WCA. Either way, this is a very dark grey problem. In learning about it, I seem to have run into a lot of other systematic problems. Since I seem to have made it my mission to try to make the skies a little safer, I certainly get tangled up in all the information I'm given. But that's why I post here. To try to get opinions, clues towards the answers. If I can get the public to sit up and pay attention to some of the things I've learned, maybe I can save a life or two. For me, that's what it is all about.

If we figure out what really needs to be changed, maybe people like you - a government agent who cares (as I'm sure most do, but certainly some don't) - will help "the cause".

There have been other threads started about the problems at TC, and some people have tried to focus on what can be done to make changes. But those threads always get tangled up in garbage and negativity, I guess because some people have some very deep-seated resentments towards TC.

Anyhow, for those who are dissatisfied, I'm interested to know what changes could be made that would make them satisfied.

niss · Post by **niss** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:04 am

I havent been screwed by TC yet, everytime I have dealt with them (very limited) they have been curdious and helpful.

My $.02

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:09 am

Like any agency there are good and bad apples. It seems to me (in my limited experience with gov agencies) that the people who are truly interested in doing a good job do that, and are left at the bottom of the totem doing their jobs as best they can. The jerks who are more interested in ass-kissing and getting a bigger pay-check spend their time working on that. Hence the dick-heads who never did a good job at thier JOB get promoted cause that's where they invested their energy. Then they get to make policy.

Most of my dealings with TC have been at the lowest possible level. (getting a licence, courses like CASO, printing off various docs etc.) These people are wonderful imho. Haven't yet had a problem. But I know people who have.

Seems to me it's the same as any other branch of the civil service (or any other company for that matter), the good ones just do thier job and go unnoticed while the assholes yell loudly and make themselves memorable.

rsandor · Post by **rsandor** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:21 am

Cat Driver wrote:No one seems to address the question of why TCCA can with impunity break and disregard the very laws they are sworn to uphold?

Answer that and we may be getting somewhere.

Quote rsandor:

" I would think most people are just fine with TC until the moment TC has a problem with something they've done. "
You failed to mention how we should react when it is TC who has done something wrong.

Are we to just bend over and take it like good little citizens just because TC thinks they are unacountable?

If TC were to give me a hard time, I'd ante up and get a lawyer, PRONTO.

I don't @#$! around.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:24 am

" Seems to me it's the same as any other branch of the civil service (or any other company for that matter), the good ones just do thier job and go unnoticed while the assholes yell loudly and make themselves memorable. "

Does anyone here remember Sheila Fraser?

Where did she find the problem, at the top or in bottom layer of government?

The problem of corrupt management is systemic at the top of TCCA.

So TC Guy and all his colleauges in TCCA is actually at a greater disadvantage than the industry is.

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:27 am

TC is just the regulatory body for our industry. Like any group of people, there are good, bad and indifferent. For someone to hate everyone in a group because of dealings with a few bad apples would be misplaced hatred.

I had a bad experience with one examiner during a check ride. He knew he was wrong and he acted inappropriately. As an experienced ACP, I knew he was wrong as well.

I chose to utilize the system to protest his actions which included a lengthy Tribunal. The Tribunal Member ruled in my favor, sent the ruling back to the Minister for reconsideration and the TC panel ruled in my favor.

I did remove the examiner from my Christmas card list and am thankful I will never have to deal with him again. This was a bad individual, not a bad body of people and his peers ruled against him.

A bad experience with one individual does not make a bad group, just a bad person.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:29 am

" If TC were to give me a hard time, I'd ante up and get a lawyer, PRONTO.

I don't @#$! around. "

Ahhhh, rsandor now that is really ground breaking advice.

What is your advice for when the time comes you can no longer pay for a lawyer, because TC has legions of lawyers to stonewall you into bankruptcy?

It's a little late for me now seeing as I already spent all I had doing just what you suggested, so now what should I do?

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:58 am

Personally I've never had a problem with TC. Everyone that I've delt with has been fair in dealing with me. That being said there are alot of stories that get told that makes a person think there are alot of problems in the organization but I think that's because no one ever talks about the good experiences they have had. The endless number of fees however I think are an issue in all the departments not just TC.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:16 am

niss wrote:curdious and helpful.

My $.02

I fail to see the resemblance.

CURDS:

COURTESY:

See the difference?

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:43 pm

rsandor.

Advice given recently on avcanada was to have $100,000 you don't need anymore if you want to defeat the army of lawyers TCCA has defending its corrupt employees. And if you win, you pay yourself out of your taxes and everyone elses.

Now, I will hasten to repeat myself that there are many good people working for TCCA whom over the years I have worked with in good harmony, and I might add, mutual respect and civility even through "tough" times.

As a government agency, TC is a blundering mindless entity that can ruin anyone, at anytime, for any reason. If you are a law-abiding citizen, the reason you get done in is because you have been unfortunate enough to be subjected to some low-achieving, spiteful sack of garbage whose only mission in life is to shit on people, having fraudulently gotten themselves employed in a regulatory agency and are determined to abuse the power and trust placed in them. This entity also drives out good people from its ranks and that poison has to come from the top.

It was the same thing with the Adscam affair. Any civil servant who considers themselves above their duties can fall into that trap (even the ones who start off OK.) They are not Kings in their own right, they are Civil Servants. i.e. "serve" not "make subservient".

Supposedly, (in fact ACTUALLY!!!!!) there are codes of behaviour that are meant to take care of abuses to the relationship between TC and the Public.

These codes are being ignored and that is why we need a watchdog as soon as possible.

Do I hate TC? No. My respect level is at an all-time low.
Do I think TC always acts correctly? No, but I acknowledge mistakes can be made. Can they be rectified?
Do I want to see TC act in a proper manner? Yes.
How do I help that happen?
Does anyone have that answer for me?

More importantly, does anyone out there really care enough to act in the interests of their own Industry?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:17 pm

$100,000 is 'way too low. If you want to take a trip through the Tribunal, Tribunal Review, Federal Court, and Federal Court of Appeals, be prepared to ante up at least $250,000, while your tax dollars pay for Transport's lawyers.

Ask me how I know this.

And even if you win in court, and the matter is "referred" back to the Minister for "re-consideration", good luck - I've beat Transport in court and Transport just ignored the "re-consideration".

At that point, you're a quarter of a million dollars in the hole, and what you have to show for it is incredible animosity from Transport, for the rest of your life. Good luck trying to get ANYTHING done in the future with them.

I've told my 14 year old kid that if he wants to fly, he'd better do it in another country - there is really, really bad blood at Transport towards anyone with my last name.

I was told in confidence by a Transport employee that a bizarre attack upon a family member of mine was motivated by "Transport's considerable anger towards you".

What cowardly scum - to attack my family, to try to hurt me.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:52 pm

desksgo wrote: COURTESY:

See the difference?

She can muffle my gun anytime...

Oh, man... we've hit a new low.

Love'em or Hate'em

TC: Love'em or Hate'em?

Love'em or Hate'em