ACPA-ALPA meeting

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:55 pm

Apparantly talks are going well between mainline and Jazz. Working on a GS. Let's hope for the best.

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:59 pm

A GS? (what does that mean?)

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:03 pm

A Global Solution to our differences. Uniting both labour units to have a stronger voice with management and possibly resolving the flowthrough to mainline dilema.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:14 pm

I don't know why it seems like such a difficult task. There are a lot of reasons for both sides to workout an agreement. Lets hope it all works out.

Loc

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:38 pm

Thanks, man.
I was surprised to see how optimistic each side is toward working together. Oh well, things can only get better. (wait a second... this IS aviation.

)

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:33 pm

Would be nice to see a bit more getting along. The current process of turning down 2/3 of the Jazz guys to AC isn't right........ Maybe I DID want to be a florist after all.........

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:05 am

Is there any talk of Jazz getting some 320's when they get the Embraer's?

arewethereyet · Post by **arewethereyet** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:25 am

I dont see the real benefit to jazz through GS other than the unity for 2009 and flow through to mainline. However than being said, if the two sides remain separate, Jazz will surely benift as ACE management starts the wipsaw. Jazz being a more cost effective unit will be used as a backstay in new negotiations. In my opinion the JAZZ guys will be happy to take away some AC flying.

I dont believe GS will ever happen. And I feel sorry for the time that will be wasted in such an endevour. When and if this process ever goes to a representative vote, ACPA will most likely lose control as ALPA would come out on top. All the ex Canadian, Jazz, and B scale AC new hires, along with a strong bottom half of AC will surely vote ALPA. Once this process if finished, thats the end of the countless appeals for the mighty ACPA. Im sure the boys will never let this happen. Its all about control. And don't forget the law suit. They will want that dropped too. And try and tell them that it has nothing to do with JAZZ.... waste of time. It is by all means a CIVIL suit. Senority will be an initial problem as well. Not in the grand scheme of things, as I have seen whats been proposed. But Im sure some Jazz guys are not gonna like a bunch of georgian guys and new hires above them on the initial list. Hey, and I dont blame them. (this is if flow through and senority are a reality) Some of the Jazz guys already work for ACE!!!

Good luck Jazz guys... I think the picture will look prettier in 2009 when and if you guys wipsaw mainline out of some flying and money! bring on the embraers!!!! or embryos or whatever!!!

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:42 am

You're a moron.

the original tony · Post by **the original tony** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:23 am

sorry to sound ignorant to the whole thing, but is the flow to mainline one of the biggest issues they are trying to deal with, one common list, or pay?
i have no idea what is going on with it, just curious if anyone has the real story of what is trying to be accomplished.
and if they want to waste time trying to explain it to the masses who have no clue, or maybe it's just me...........

thanks

cog · Post by **cog** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:58 am

Arewethereyet,

You’re statement is perhaps one of the most uninformed and idiotic I have read on this forum. It is apparent you do not understand the benefits of a merger because you’re uneducated about the situation. Unfortunately, it is similar attitudes that will hinder this process and not ACPA’s desire for control or even the lawsuit.

I currently work at Jazz and have no desire to see the EMB’s come here. It is my hope that Air Canada does keep them even though it would benefit me directly. No one should be flying those airplanes for any less than the current pay scale at Air Canada. It solves nothing except to further degrade wages and working conditions.

A Global solution would finally put a rest to this issue and allow both groups and aviation as a whole to move forward. Let’s hope this prevails and the opinions of the misinformed are ignored.

LANDGREEN · Post by **LANDGREEN** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:34 am

arewethereyet,

Say again your coming in extremely STUPID!!!

YVRflyer · Post by **YVRflyer** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:06 am

The last AC mainline course was told that in the not so far future AC mainline is planning on hiring exclusively from AC Jazz and not from the street anymore. Maybe thats one of the reasons ALPA and ACPA talk to solve issues like seniority, YOS and so on ......

arewethereyet · Post by **arewethereyet** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:49 pm

that will be great for all the jazz guys who have already been PFO'D!!

arewethereyet · Post by **arewethereyet** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:57 pm

tony!!!! hey smarty pants... maybe a moron..but at least im not a smug, self centered, know it all who preaches air canada is god!!! im not the only one who thinks it either.

was just trying to give my opinion. kinda sick of your kind thinking their better that the guys who help pay your paycheck!!! JAZZ!!! idiot!

ps.. you work for ACE!!! and you dont fly the mother ship!

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:06 pm

I only hope that both sides send some of the new guard to the meetings. IMHO this will be the only way this will work. Old feelings and prejudices will sink this thing quick, just as it has in the past.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:49 pm

Smitty wrote:I only hope that both sides send some of the new guard to the meetings. IMHO this will be the only way this will work. Old feelings and prejudices will sink this thing quick, just as it has in the past.

Unless a changing of the guard is implemented that's exactly what's going to happen..

spm · Post by **spm** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:08 am

What happens when ACE sells off Jazz, the mainline and all the other companies and seizes to exist. Would the new GS still hold true for 2 separately run companies.

This is how I think it will eventually end up within the next 5 years, probably sooner.

The argument that pilots working for jazz and the mainline both work for the same company ACE wont exist either.

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:59 am

What happens when ACE sells off Jazz, the mainline and all the other companies and seizes to exist. Would the new GS still hold true for 2 separately run companies.

This is how I think it will eventually end up within the next 5 years, probably sooner.

Could not have said it better myself.

Arewethereyet: You are entitled to your opinion, however it might be worth looking at the bigger picture. Jazz is merely a service provider to AC at this point. Any carrier in this country, or any carrier outside of this country could theoretcially do the same work, and with the advent of globalization, in the not to distant future, one can expect that the regionals south of the border may one day be doing the flying that Jazz is currently doing under some revamped "open skies" agreement.

As a separate Company, Jazz will have to bid for the CPA and compete with any other carrier that participates in the process, and the spoils will go to the lowest bidder.

In my opinion, ACGHS will be the first on the block to compete with outside bidders when they become fully separate. That will be the case study in the "parcelization" of what was once AC.

GS is in my opinion is important in ensuring that when both pilot groups go to the bargaining table we are on common ground, however no one should think that through GS pilots of Jazz in anyway land a seat at AC.

arewethereyet · Post by **arewethereyet** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:44 am

Good post,

I echo your thoughts regarding foregn carriers doing Jazz work. However Jazz has the infrastrucure in place. I cant see any other carrier coming up and taking the work over night. I would think that the first carrier to cross the border would cause all hell to break loose at both JZA and AC. As for Jazz being a feeder... I guess you could look at it both ways. AC does feed to Jazz as well. It truly is the same company anyway you look at it.

I wonder if Jazz will look transborder for other work unrelated to the scope anytime soon.

It will be interesting to watch what some of the cargo carriers will do in the future as well. Sure be cheaper for Fed Ex and the likes.

Why is it that the mainline guys are so scared of Jazz guys and a flow through?

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:43 am

Just to throw this out there. It is unlikely that there will be any sort of flow through agreement between Jazz and AC but if there is, and it is a big if, don't forget that there would be a flow back as well.

RussD · Post by **RussD** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:59 am

spm wrote:What happens when ACE sells off Jazz, the mainline and all the other companies and seizes to exist. Would the new GS still hold true for 2 separately run companies.

This is how I think it will eventually end up within the next 5 years, probably sooner.

The argument that pilots working for jazz and the mainline both work for the same company ACE wont exist either.

ACE has yet to sell any of it's equity in Jazz and to date has shown no interest in doing so. The same can't be said for AC however

Granted that doesn't meen things won't change the future. As I have stated previously, unless all this talk leads to one list, one contract and one bargaining agent I can't see any point to it or likelyhood of a mutually benificial result.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:05 pm

Even if ACE does spin off jazz, don't you think they would maintain a controlling interest? Just as they have done with the technical and with aeroplan, and now with the mainline?

spm · Post by **spm** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:19 pm

I'm no expert but I thought Jazz was already partially spun off as a trust fund. And that was before spinning off the mainline. And Milton has been quoted as saying that ACE may seize to exist one day. And Jazz was not included in the mainline spin-off. Who really knows what they have planned but it seems plausible to me. So at some point the Mainline might be able to use the lowest bidder for maintenance, regional flying, etc... But if Jazz was completely separate they could then buy bigger A/C and compete directly with AC.
Only Robert knows what will happen. Kind of annoying isn't it haha.

RussD · Post by **RussD** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:47 pm

spm wrote:I'm no expert but I thought Jazz was already partially spun off as a trust fund. And that was before spinning off the mainline. And Milton has been
Only Robert knows what will happen. Kind of annoying isn't it haha.

Yes they did spin of about 25 million trust units. And I'm certainly no expert either, but I was led to believe that the units were rights to profitability, not ownership. I stand to be corrected tho. ACE does retain around 100 million trust units. At a dividend of $1/unit per year that equates to a 'rebate' of about 100 mill in what ACE pays to buy Jazz capacity. Out of one pocket and into the other.

ACPA-ALPA meeting

ACPA-ALPA meeting

what happens

Re: what happens