More Pilot Deaths

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niss
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Post by niss »

They died doing what they loved to do...
Compelling arguments for both sides of weather that is an appropriate saying or not.

I pose to you this question. Since we all have to die sometime, and few of us are able to die peacefully and quietly then would you not agree that atleast they were doing what they loved at the time?

If you believe that your time is your time then it could have very well been a car accident, a botched robbery, falling through the ice on a snow mobile, etc.

Morbid, but perhapse apt?
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Hedley
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Post by Hedley »

Anyone that wants to die in an aircraft is an idiot. What a waste of an aircraft.

If I had to choose my method of checking out, it would be when I am 105 years old, and I am in bed with a voluptuous 35 year old, and we have just had 4 hours of hot, pounding sex, and just after we achieve simultaneous orgasm for the 3rd time, her jealous husband bursts through the door, and shoots me clean through the heart. Fade to black.

He'd have to be a pretty good shot, though - I'm told I have a very small, black, withered heart :wink:

During the ensuing autopsy, some doubt would be expressed as to the actual cause of death - mortal exhaustion from excessive sexual activity, or the gunshot wound to the chest.
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Doc
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Post by Doc »

More often than not, they didn't die doing something they loved (what a pile of shit to even make a comment like that!) they died because they did something really stupid! Sorry....but that is a FACT!!!! And, until everybody admits that simple FACT, the carnage will continue!
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Doc
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Post by Doc »

Hedley......I haven't figured out how to GO yet, but the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders do enter into the plan!
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CD
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Post by CD »

Doc wrote:More often than not, they didn't die doing something they loved (what a pile of shit to even make a comment like that!) they died because they did something really stupid! Sorry....but that is a FACT!!!! And, until everybody admits that simple FACT, the carnage will continue!
I don't think it would be a good idea to post that thought over on this page... :smt086
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Doc
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Post by Doc »

Now, I did say..."More often that not....", so, I'm covered. Because that is usually the case....but not always....nothing is always.....never say never! And never say always....anyways?...now, that's Okay.
My coffee cup is empty...
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Wilbur
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Post by Wilbur »

Widow, be careful what you wish for in your desire to allow injured workers sue employers. The system we have now grew out of the shortcommings of that former practice. In 1908 BC enacted the employers liability act that allowed workers to sue their employers for compensation. This approach has several significant flaws. First, you have to prove the employer was negligent, and if you can't you get nothing. Second, the guilty employer can simply go bankrupt and again, you get nothing. Third, if you do get anything the lawyers will take most of it. Fourth, if anything is left for you it will be a lump sum that may run out before your needs do.

From 1910-13, an Ontario Royal Commission headed by Justice William Meredith examined different compensation systems from around the world, and issued a series of recommendations. They have been adopted by every jurisdiction in Canada, and many other places around North America. It was from this work that BC created the Worker's Compensation Act in 1917. Most significantly, Meredith recommended our current collective liability system and the trade off that worker's gave up the right to sue, but gained guaranteed no-fault compensation regardless of what happened to the employer.

This, however, does not mean employers can not face consequences for regulatory non-compliance. The BC Worker's Compensation Ammendment Act, Part 3, Occupation Health and Safety, Division 15 prescribes fines up to $500,000 and $25,000 per day thereafter that a violation continues, and 6 months imprisonment for a first offence. Those penalities double for second and subsequent offences. The WCB has the option of prosecuting both the corporte entity and the individual decision makers involved. Board officers can also impose administrative financial sanctions for violations of the Occupational Health and Safety Regulation.

As well, following the Westray Mine disaster a few years ago, the federal government criminalized neglegence regarding workplace health and safety violations.

Simply put, our WCB system is a type of insurance scheme that provides employers with relatively predictable rates, and workers with guaranteed compensation for the duration of their injury (or in the case of death, a pension for their dependants). It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than any other alternative I've heard of. Of course, provincial WCB's do not have jurisdiction over federally regulated industries, which includes aviation.
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Widow
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Post by Widow »

Wilbur:

If I am not mistaken, prior to 1908 if you died on the job your family got nothing, period. You had no option to sue, there were no pensions. From 1908 to 1917, you may think
Wilbur wrote:This approach has several significant flaws. First, you have to prove the employer was negligent, and if you can't you get nothing. Second, the guilty employer can simply go bankrupt and again, you get nothing. Third, if you do get anything the lawyers will take most of it. Fourth, if anything is left for you it will be a lump sum that may run out before your needs do.
but it was better than getting nothing. After 1917, you say
Wilbur wrote:Most significantly, Meredith recommended our current collective liability system and the trade off that worker's gave up the right to sue, but gained guaranteed no-fault compensation regardless of what happened to the employer.
And that is as it should be, UNLESS criminal negligence comes into play.
Wilbur wrote:This, however, does not mean employers can not face consequences for regulatory non-compliance. The BC Worker's Compensation Ammendment Act, Part 3, Occupation Health and Safety, Division 15 prescribes fines up to $500,000 and $25,000 per day thereafter that a violation continues, and 6 months imprisonment for a first offence. Those penalities double for second and subsequent offences. The WCB has the option of prosecuting both the corporte entity and the individual decision makers involved. Board officers can also impose administrative financial sanctions for violations of the Occupational Health and Safety Regulation.
However, as you concurred:
Although there is a presumption that OHS falls under provincial jurisdiction, the OHS of certain organizations will fall under federal jurisdiction...

While section 108(1)(c) of the Act permits the federal government to submit to the application of Part 3 of the Act, which would give WorkSafeBC the ability to inspect organizations that are under federal jurisdiction, the federal government has not submitted to the application of Part 3 of the Act under this section.
(see: http://www2.worksafebc.com/Publications ... ionAct.asp)

This is my point. The WCB doesn't have the authority to impose the sanctions you mentioned above on TC regulated industried, and you have a regulator who doesn't regulate consistently with common sense and integrity.

As for:
Wilbur wrote:As well, following the Westray Mine disaster a few years ago, the federal government criminalized neglegence regarding workplace health and safety violations.
As far as the cops and prosecutors are concerned Bill C-45 did nothing to change their ability to actually impose charges, let alone make them stick. And if the regulator won't even look at the case to say whether or not the culprit did commit infractions, or won't admit to it because to do so would also implicate the regulator, then the cops hands are totally tied.

So where does that leave the dead guys family? If I'd taken my car to the shop and the mechanic did something wrong that caused a fatal accident, you better believe the system (and my lawyers) would be all over him.

Why should it be any different just because the fatality was logging, or worse still, working in the skies when it happened?

When you have a situation, such as ours, where somebody did something way wrong that ended up killing your loved one, then you tell me it is OK for the culprit to get away without ANY sanctions.
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Wilbur
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Post by Wilbur »

Should a dependent of a killed worker be able to sue an employer, company officers, etc. in the case of criminal negligence? Perhaps, and in an "off the cuff" opinion given without exploring the WCA and case law, perhaps the law might even allow for that. Generally speaking, you can't buy insurance to protect you from the consequences of commiting criminal acts. However, I would bet the way it would work is that the WCB would continue to pay the victims as they do, but then WCB would be able to sue the negligent company/people to get back their costs.

The catch of course is proving criminal negligence, and this is never easy to do. The mere fact a person's actions were negligent does not make them criminally negligent. To be criminally negligent, they pretty much had to believe their actions were placing others at imminent risk of death or greivace bodily harm. In area's of highly subjective decision making, such as judging when an aircraft part needs replacing, proving criminal negligence would be nearly impossible in all but the most extreme examples. The nation of litigants to our south probably doesn't help much either. How many AD's have been issued over the years simply becuase some idiotic US jury gave a bogus award to some litigant when there really wasn't any bona-fide product performance problem? If I fail to comply with what is only a "law suit ass covering" AD, am I meeting the test to be found criminally negligent? Probably not.

All that said, I'm generally comming to the opinion that TC routinely drops the ball on many issues relating to safety, investigations and enforcement action. It's not hard to understand why they aren't too good in these areas when you look at who they hire for these jobs; pilots and AME's. They give them some quicky training in invesigation techniques and administrative law, and then turn them loose on the world. Their aviation credentials are the priority, but, perhaps TC should be looking for some experienced investigators and occ health people from other fields (law enforcement, occ health specialists) who also happen to have some aviation experience. I suspect an experienced police investigator with a commercial licence, who perhaps worked in the aviation industry before becomming a cop, would be a lot better TC inspector than an ATPL rated pilot with no experience other than flying. Food for thought.
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Widow
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Post by Widow »

Wilbur: I like your idea of a cop investigator, though I'm sure most operators would not!

FYI: According to the WCB lawyers, there are no circumstances under which a private employer in Canada can be found civilly liable. No way around it. If a sueable party could be found outside this protective umbrella (ie, a gov't agency or non-cdn company) then the WCB may use their rights of subrugation and try to recoup their losses (pensions, etc.). Their choice of course.
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