yeah, you're right....forgot about that.spm wrote:I'm no expert but I thought Jazz was already partially spun off as a trust fund. And that was before spinning off the mainline. And Milton has been quoted as saying that ACE may seize to exist one day.
Only Robert knows what will happen. Kind of annoying isn't it haha.
ACPA-ALPA meeting
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wallypilot
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twinpratts
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Sorry dude... there's no way that can be true.YVRflyer wrote:The last AC mainline course was told that in the not so far future AC mainline is planning on hiring exclusively from AC Jazz and not from the street anymore. Maybe thats one of the reasons ALPA and ACPA talk to solve issues like seniority, YOS and so on ......
Anyone out there heard this
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
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thrust set
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I think everyone is forgetting the intent of the meetings? What is the purpose to have both sides together? What will this mean for representation? Why is 2009 important for both sides? How has the "whipsaw " caused damage on both sides of the fence. How do we even start to integrate lists ( foregone conclusion it will be BOTL for Jazz with protective fences on both sides). Lawsuit what happens now?
Sit back, and let both sides let their committee members do the work that was started four years ago. Look at who is on each committee and you will see dedicated members from AC and Jazz that want a solution for all pilots in the ACE family.
For the pilots that want this to be done as quick as possible unfortunately that wont happen. My experience is that AC will take it slow not to stumble out of the gate. Make sure all the steps have been done in a very precise order. Jazz on the other hand will want to work fast as every month means another 20 pilots off the street go ahead of them. Or they can come to an agreement to draw the line in the sand very soon and continue talks for a solution but have a date already set for when pilots will fall behind "both respective " lists.
I could chat more on this but it's time to go sit on a beach and "chillax".
Sit back, and let both sides let their committee members do the work that was started four years ago. Look at who is on each committee and you will see dedicated members from AC and Jazz that want a solution for all pilots in the ACE family.
For the pilots that want this to be done as quick as possible unfortunately that wont happen. My experience is that AC will take it slow not to stumble out of the gate. Make sure all the steps have been done in a very precise order. Jazz on the other hand will want to work fast as every month means another 20 pilots off the street go ahead of them. Or they can come to an agreement to draw the line in the sand very soon and continue talks for a solution but have a date already set for when pilots will fall behind "both respective " lists.
I could chat more on this but it's time to go sit on a beach and "chillax".
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thrust set
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Forgot one point, Global Solution/ IRC was and never will be about flowthrough. That is a method upon where one group negotiates for the ability to access work at another group ie LOU 54 CRA/CAIL.
Wont have to go down that road since the common intent is to have one bargaining agent. Similar to when ZIP was operational in the ACPA contract.
Wont have to go down that road since the common intent is to have one bargaining agent. Similar to when ZIP was operational in the ACPA contract.
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Stick-Shaker
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thrust set
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Before I believe this could have been a stumbling block with both sides wanting their respective representation. Remember what a union is. It's not the " Gestapo" where we are afraid for our lives . We all are "THE" union. It should not matter what acronym we use ACPA>>ALPA. 'That said ALPA has deep pockets with tons of resources' but remember ACPA was created by it's members. Kind of like someone's child.
My guess if this gets off the ground and both sides are serious. Representation vote......and a majority for ACPA. No need to bring any Oliver Stone theory of Jazz ALPA and former CAIL ALPA together.....wont happen.
My guess if this gets off the ground and both sides are serious. Representation vote......and a majority for ACPA. No need to bring any Oliver Stone theory of Jazz ALPA and former CAIL ALPA together.....wont happen.
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Martin Tamme
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Stick-Shaker wrote:
However, will it be an ACPA or ALPA barginning unit? Your opinion?
How about neither?
The trick is stay away from taking positions, and rather focus on the underlying interests. Once you've identified the objectives - of what you are trying to accomplish - you work backwards to see what needs to be done to in order to achieve those objectives.
It's actually a quite simple process. If you say you want ACPA or ALPA, you are taking a position. The focus is going to be more in line with what is it exactly that we want out of this relationship, and then what needs to be done in order to obtain that goal, which essentially ensures each others interests are addressed.
There's a good negotiations book out there called "Getting to YES!". It's a book to be used by parties who actually want to resolve their differences. Words like 'compromise' are a no-no, because they are a lose-lose situation; you want to use words like 'collaborate', because you are looking at expanding the pie before dividing it.
Now there's an old friend. That book is as valuable today as the day it was written all those years ago. Too bad more people that created this conflict didn't read it and use it 15 - 20 years ago. Fisher and Ury's book is all common sense really, but getting past positional bargaining is easier said than done,,, especially given the amount of water under this paricular bridge.Martin Tamme wrote:Stick-Shaker wrote:
However, will it be an ACPA or ALPA barginning unit? Your opinion?
How about neither?
There's a good negotiations book out there called "Getting to YES!". It's a book to be used by parties who actually want to resolve their differences.
I for one am not holding my breath over this try.
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Stick-Shaker
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You all make intelligent points. I wish that more were as level headed about the road forward as you all demonstrate. Its not necessarily ACPA or ALPA, its where we get the best bang for our buck sort of speak. I like this collaborate rather than compromise philosophy. Never thought of it that way before.Martin Tamme wrote: Words like 'compromise' are a no-no, because they are a lose-lose situation; you want to use words like 'collaborate', because you are looking at expanding the pie before dividing it.
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Last edited by Stick-Shaker on Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Two words that should never be mentioned (feel free to add to the list) are Picher and lawsuit.
These meetings should be about one thing and one thing only. What is best for the majority of pilots in the ACE world. A united front would make Milton shake in his boots.
I would be pleasantly surprised to see AC and Jazz Pilots finally put the past behind them and move foreward.
Now everybody.....group hug!!!
These meetings should be about one thing and one thing only. What is best for the majority of pilots in the ACE world. A united front would make Milton shake in his boots.
I would be pleasantly surprised to see AC and Jazz Pilots finally put the past behind them and move foreward.
Now everybody.....group hug!!!
The process of spining off business units is well under way at ACE. The fact is that in excess of 20% of Jazz is available on the market, as Jazz is an Income Trust. It is as has been said, only a matter of time before ACE is no more. Air Canada does not have any investment in Jazz, ACE does... Same goes for all the other business units. The "Free" Market will determine the outcome.
I agree, no other operator will come in and take away business from Jazz overnight, however, it can go to tender with an allocation of sufficient time in which to set up the infrastructure. Again, you only need look south of the border to see what has happened. Never say never!
I agree, no other operator will come in and take away business from Jazz overnight, however, it can go to tender with an allocation of sufficient time in which to set up the infrastructure. Again, you only need look south of the border to see what has happened. Never say never!
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Martin Tamme
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No, at the present time, only the protocol was being considered. Nevertheless, do you have any possible solutions?socrates wrote:Anyone have any idea to the possible solutions they have come up with.
Again think of it in terms of one's interest: Identify the main cause of concerns an integrated seniority list would have on the entire seniority range from both groups. In other words, what are the greatest concerns the most senior Jazz pilots would have with an integrated seniority list? What about the most junior pilot who was just hired at Air Canada last week - what are his concerns?
Compare the before and after picture. For example, the number one Jazz pilot presently enjoys the benefits of being number one: Financial stability for the rest of his career (assuming Jazz doesn't fold); best pick at a schedule, etc. In the event of a downturn at Jazz, he would still enjoy these benefits. What would the effects be of a combined seniority list on him?
Address his concerns (no windfall gains - no windfall losses) and you are on the right track. Do the same exercise for all pilots. You have to place yourself in everyone's shoes, and then play devils advocate.
So please, what are your solutions?
P.S. Maybe it would be a good exercise for everyone. State which airline you presently fly for, and in what seniority range you find yourself in. Then take hypothetical extreme cases:
(1) Jazz folds and AC takes over all flying (contracting out the smaller flights to Tier 3 carriers)
(2) Air Canada concentrates solely on overseas flights, and all narrow-bodied aircraft are transferred to Jazz.
Given the seniority you presently hold within your respective company, how would you organise a fair and equitable list?
P.P.S. I can't guarantee you that the Jazz GS Committee is monitoring this forum, but I know for a fact that the ACPA one is. The objective is to address all concerns that you have.
For what its worth here is my take on it:
Acpa does not want the whipsaw to continue and wants to stop the wage destruction on the smaller equipment (embro), and protect their pension which will be their top priority.
Jazz pilots wants growth and therefore an increase in pay (more left seats), career progression.
There will never be one list under a single collective barginning unit. Never.
The reason is quite simple, dues. This is what stopped GS before and will prevent it again. 2% of 1500 pilots wages at jazz is a hell of a lot of money on a monthly basis going to ALPA(even though jazz pay sucks big time)
The solution must benifit both parties. Jazz pilots would get bottom of the list and therefore will have movement as pilots leave for the mainline. this would not affect the mainline pilots at all. ACPA gets no competition on their embro wages and possibly get a raise, and gets to keep them.
A extra benifit to both is that through collusion on the barginning jazz pilots may actually get a raise and ACPA will have the ability to move down to jazz in the event of layoffs (this of course would not happen as many retirements at mainline and most guys would not go bottom of list at jazz, they would go overseas first, most hate the embro-do you think they wound fly a DH8 or CRJ??)
Still two barginning units , however colluding together to achieve better working conditions. ACPA and ALPA "own" their lists. The company simply says to the union we need X amt of pilots on whatever equip/ bases and the union fills those positions.
What makes it all a joke is probably at the last minute Milton will offer JAZZ the embro and sh*t pay and ALPA will try to pull a fast one on ACPA. Because the senior , bitter union types at jazz with no intension for mainline will be just licking their lips to get those embros.
Not to accuse anyone of doing such a thing. I think given the past , anything is possible.
If Oil spikes and inflation picks up, or whatever, in the next downturn scheduled for around 2009-2012 or so, you can be sure that reducing costs will be AC number 1 priority and ACPA's will be pension protection givin the #s of retirements.
For those of you that think JAzz will have to "compete" with other airlines from the states, think carefully of the outcome of that. Layoffs at a company the size of Jazz would have huge political implications as well as a huge reduction of tax to the government-which of course would now be going to support the US goverment. So jazz would win that fight hands down. Also have a look at the size and # of Aircraft flying at the regionals in the US. Jazz would take a pay cut for sure and so would mainline on their embros. My guess is you would see many CRJ900 at jazz in that situation, which is along way off-if it ever happens at all.
just my best guess
Acpa does not want the whipsaw to continue and wants to stop the wage destruction on the smaller equipment (embro), and protect their pension which will be their top priority.
Jazz pilots wants growth and therefore an increase in pay (more left seats), career progression.
There will never be one list under a single collective barginning unit. Never.
The reason is quite simple, dues. This is what stopped GS before and will prevent it again. 2% of 1500 pilots wages at jazz is a hell of a lot of money on a monthly basis going to ALPA(even though jazz pay sucks big time)
The solution must benifit both parties. Jazz pilots would get bottom of the list and therefore will have movement as pilots leave for the mainline. this would not affect the mainline pilots at all. ACPA gets no competition on their embro wages and possibly get a raise, and gets to keep them.
A extra benifit to both is that through collusion on the barginning jazz pilots may actually get a raise and ACPA will have the ability to move down to jazz in the event of layoffs (this of course would not happen as many retirements at mainline and most guys would not go bottom of list at jazz, they would go overseas first, most hate the embro-do you think they wound fly a DH8 or CRJ??)
Still two barginning units , however colluding together to achieve better working conditions. ACPA and ALPA "own" their lists. The company simply says to the union we need X amt of pilots on whatever equip/ bases and the union fills those positions.
What makes it all a joke is probably at the last minute Milton will offer JAZZ the embro and sh*t pay and ALPA will try to pull a fast one on ACPA. Because the senior , bitter union types at jazz with no intension for mainline will be just licking their lips to get those embros.
Not to accuse anyone of doing such a thing. I think given the past , anything is possible.
If Oil spikes and inflation picks up, or whatever, in the next downturn scheduled for around 2009-2012 or so, you can be sure that reducing costs will be AC number 1 priority and ACPA's will be pension protection givin the #s of retirements.
For those of you that think JAzz will have to "compete" with other airlines from the states, think carefully of the outcome of that. Layoffs at a company the size of Jazz would have huge political implications as well as a huge reduction of tax to the government-which of course would now be going to support the US goverment. So jazz would win that fight hands down. Also have a look at the size and # of Aircraft flying at the regionals in the US. Jazz would take a pay cut for sure and so would mainline on their embros. My guess is you would see many CRJ900 at jazz in that situation, which is along way off-if it ever happens at all.
just my best guess
How about one seniority list with career progression to bigger equipment for the Jazz types. Give them the choice to either accept or decline individually. That way the senior types can stay with career and pay protection, if that is their wish. Those who accept may run the risk of being displaced by AC types, but with retirements this should be minimal.
AC pilots get better job security and an end to the whipsaw. Jazz pilots get a choice of staying or going.
AC pilots get better job security and an end to the whipsaw. Jazz pilots get a choice of staying or going.
Maybe that won't be that big a deal as (to the best of my knowledge) ACE will cease to exist when all the units have been divested to release their value. Plus, if the pilots stand as one unit, Milton will have no choice but to listen.
The battling units have been a boon to the higher ups at ACE and the pilots biggest downfall. Time to change before 2009.
The battling units have been a boon to the higher ups at ACE and the pilots biggest downfall. Time to change before 2009.
Just imagine the solidarity if the AC & Jazz pilots had the balls the NWA guys haveSmitty wrote: if the pilots stand as one unit, Milton will have no choice but to listen.
The battling units have been a boon to the higher ups at ACE and the pilots biggest downfall. Time to change before 2009.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DatpAwCHO2U
Nothing against hypotheticals, however that is just what this merger of seniority lists and method to the madness is... just hypothetical.
At this stage, is it not more important to resolve a common bargaining strategy rather than a common seniority list? It is clear, that full integration of the lists is not going to happen, so why even entertain it at this point? All this discussion of how we could achieve a list merely distracts us all from what is important, going to the table without stabbing eachother in the back!
At this stage, is it not more important to resolve a common bargaining strategy rather than a common seniority list? It is clear, that full integration of the lists is not going to happen, so why even entertain it at this point? All this discussion of how we could achieve a list merely distracts us all from what is important, going to the table without stabbing eachother in the back!
While I agree with what you say, I also believe there has to be some glue holding the group together. Otherwise backroom deals are inevitable. A common list would give pause to the groups who may be meeting with Milton or Randell on the side to the disadvantage of the other group.Nothing against hypotheticals, however that is just what this merger of seniority lists and method to the madness is... just hypothetical.
At this stage, is it not more important to resolve a common bargaining strategy rather than a common seniority list? It is clear, that full integration of the lists is not going to happen, so why even entertain it at this point? All this discussion of how we could achieve a list merely distracts us all from what is important, going to the table without stabbing eachother in the back!
JMHO.
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tonysoprano
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arewethereyet(buddy, you're never gonna get there) wrote,
Well, what can I say. Now I'm even more convinced you're a moron. IMHO, of course.tony!!!! hey smarty pants... maybe a moron..but at least im not a smug, self centered, know it all who preaches air canada is god!!! im not the only one who thinks it either.
was just trying to give my opinion. kinda sick of your kind thinking their better that the guys who help pay your paycheck!!! JAZZ!!! idiot!
ps.. you work for ACE!!! and you dont fly the mother ship!
I heard Jazz MEC already has payscales drawn up for the EMBs to present to the company before 2009 should GS not be implemented by then. And that should GS work, Jazz pilots would fly EMBs on ACPA contract, the fence being the A320. Possible type freezes for a number of years and then eventually fences removed. Anybody?
