Sewertubes and ALPA

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ei ei owe
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Post by ei ei owe »

Captain Crunch wrote: Sure like all companies there are problems, but we have people that listen, and for the most part they try and help you as best they can.
The CPA can't do much when management comes down with a decision.
Captain Crunch wrote:
All in all, I personally wouldnt mind to learn more about ALPA, then again, the current union hasnt had much time to prove what they can do for us yet either... and believe me, they have a big test coming up.
ALPA or not, a job is only as good as you make it. So far, its fine by me.
There isn't a union at PAG. That's why ALPA is being discussed. As for bringing in a rep to talk to us, what's he gonna say? "ALPA sucks so don't bring us is..." C'mon, it's gonna be a pep rally and the popular group will win. Is ALPA the best idea? I don't know but what I do know is that a group of 100+ pilots need a stronger voice than the CPA. Yeah we've got a president, vice pres, treasurer and a secratery. What can they really handle other than minor issues? When it really comes down to it, the CP and Ops have the final say. And while I don't completely disagree with how they handle business, there's some loose ends that need work but that's the "smaller picture." Now let's go fly some metros and make some $$$$$.
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Post by Mediator »

Ok, I've been reading on this site for the last 7 or so years and have read tons of threads that have given me the itch to make my first post on this site, but none have caused me to......well I guess I've taken the bait!

First of all, I'd like to start by saying that I spent many years flying at Perimeter and that I maintain a good working relationship with all of PAG's key management and several line pilots, medevac pilots, maintenance personnel and training personnel. I won't say where I work now because that is irrelevant...and quite frankly, it's none of your business. :lol:

PAG has gone through quite a few growing pains since the demise of Skyward. This company has its issues, but it maintains its integrity and safety. From a pilots point of view it may seem like the maintenance has been crappy in the last year, but at least the aircraft don't go out the door broken (knowingly anyways) or with canadian tire parts like other companies who have gone down the $hitter. At a company that is unsafe, the aircraft are always serviceable. How else can other companies in the region operate a medevac aircraft in Island Lake for 6 or 7 weeks on end without a snag?? The dispatch reliability is at an all time low while the B$ is apparently at an all time high. Crews rarely do what they are scheduled to do, and often don't even have a serviceable aircraft to do it in. Oh, there is that taxing of the per diems issue we all know about. PAG sure dropped the ball on that one, although they have spent lots of time, money and energy trying to get a straight answer from the tax man. Don't forget the disasterous parking joke...but I have heard that things are better now. At least I can find a spot now when I need to drop in. I'm sure there are more bad things, but that's all I can think of at this time.

There are numerous positives at PAG. The flight managers really give a $hit about the company and they really believe in thier employees. At most companies at this level, you show up for work and are given YOUR fuel load. At PAG you take whatever the hell you want. At most companies at this level you work from day to day without a solid schedule. You might even work 27 days a month, come out for three and go back up north. At PAG you get a nice cooshy schedule and work your 15-20 days max per month. Any more is on your terms and comes with overtime. Oh yeah, you also get to pick any 6 days off you want each month!? What other company gives you time off to go to an interview on 3 days notice after the schedule has already been issued? Under the current management, shift changes are done between pilots often without interference from anyone. From all of the folks I know in this industry, PAG pays just as well or better than most. Where else can a "sewertube" driver pull in $85,000 as a 6-9 month captain with 2000 hrs total time working half of the year?? Oh yeah, I heard PAG employees got a xmas turkey this year...ha ha...don't get angry TR. Better than a kick in the A$$.

In my honest opinion, the company is not running at its full potential. Crews are clearly unhappy, and so are the managers. I don't think ALPA or Jimmy Hoffa can fix the issues at Perimeter. Why, because there aren't really any big issues that can't be resolved in house. People bash the CPA and its clout. Not too long ago, FO's at PAG made 5 cents a mile while you overpaid captains were still in highschool. After some quick math, this worked out to roughly $15,000 a year. The CPA has fought for huge wage increases, benefits and scheduling. One of the main problems at PAG is the CPA itself. There is no incentive for pilots to get in there and make a difference, and if they do it lasts for about 4 months until the next coup d'etat. If you've ever had the chance to look through a CPA contract you'd see that it is poorly written, contradicts itself and leaves way too many grey areas. IN my opinion, this is the only thing that ALPA could successfully acomplish at PAG...they could write a real contract with all the details. They could probably fix that nagging per diem issue too. Hire a lawyer instead and save yourself the $2000 per pilot cost per year. As far as I know, there has never been an official grievance filed by the CPA since its inception. If things are that bad, you'd think someone would file an official beef? Someone pointed out that the company going public has been a bad thing...totally the opposite. This arrangement only provides a means for cash to buy additional aircraft, infrastructure and business relationships. Perimeter's issues are centered around a general lack of organization and communication and a maintenance department that has struggled to keep enough aircraft serviceable to profitably operate the airline. PAG keeps half of its competitors in business with charters to service its own scheduled service. I'm sorry, but ALPA can't fix this. After all this, ALPA would probably come to PAG, look at the facts and say "why the hell are we here anyways?...but I guess we'll still take your money".

Management currently has a decent relationship with the CPA from what I have seen. A few cancerous pilots have spread the B$ throughout the pilot group. The only ones that are happy are the pilots who just started or have worked somewhere else. Perimeter's hiring policy of hiring from the ramp certainly has some drawbacks. A typical pilot comes to PAG, works on the ramp for 12-16 months and jumps into the right seat of a metro at $22,500 wth 200 hrs. A year later he/she is given a left seat PPC and upgraded shortly thereafter. It doesn't take too long for the cancer to set in. PAG has a lot of good guys and gals, but people were happier there many years ago at 5 cents a mile and 120 hrs a month. Many PAG pilots have no idea what it is like to work for a $hitty company that flies broken aircraft, breaks duty days, bust minimums and really treats you like crap. A lot of you PAG pilots need to wake up and smell the roses. The grass isn't so green on the other side. Use your CPA to get a little more from the company. Spend some of the CPA "stash of cash" to draft up a real contract, or at least write a new one yourself that makes sense with all the new aircraft types. In many ways, many of the systems, rules and pay structures are broken now. These used to work with 30 pilots and one aircraft type. The truth is PAG is a great place to work. It will always be a stepping stone for many pilots, but at least enjoy yourself while you are there, fly safely, respect the company and appreciate the golden opportunity you have been given! :)
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bobcaygeon
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Post by bobcaygeon »

There isn't a union at PAG. That's why ALPA is being discussed. As for bringing in a rep to talk to us, what's he gonna say? "ALPA sucks so don't bring us is..." C'mon, it's gonna be a pep rally and the popular group will win. Is ALPA the best idea? I don't know but what I do know is that a group of 100+ pilots need a stronger voice than the CPA. Yeah we've got a president, vice pres, treasurer and a secratery. What can they really handle other than minor issues? When it really comes down to it, the CP and Ops have the final say. And while I don't completely disagree with how they handle business, there's some loose ends that need work but that's the "smaller picture." Now let's go fly some metros and make some $$$$$.[/quote]
What makes you think that ALPA will turn your CPA into something other than a popularity contest that it is now. Still the same people.....What has your CPA invested in it's rep's? Have they given them any tools??? any training??? Sounds more like you need a lawyer to write a contract and a few trained reps. than the whole ALPA thing. The CPA won't do any good if all you guys do is bitch in the crewroom, ALPA won't fix that either. Get involved, volunteer your time, and then maybe you might see some of the results that you want. ALPA with no volunteers is just as useless.

Rapid growth is a pain in the ass for any airline, never mind one flying old beat to shit airplanes which can't be replaced easily (the metro II). I would rather have my flight's cx/delayed than fly broken equip. I still fly with guys who would fly broken equip. to get home and they ain't stuck in YST.

Good luck on your union venture but remember if you ain't part of the majority then life still sucks. Communication with your management will get worse and you may get to make 35K and fly an 86 seat RJ. ALPA agreed to layoff you OPS mgr. even though there were probably 50 pilots junior to him including me!! My rep was a better negotiator than his :wink:

Hope you can fix your problems internally but there will always be problems no matter where you work.

PS American Airlines doesn't use ALPA they use an in house association.
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giligan
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Post by giligan »

edited
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Last edited by giligan on Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Pith Helmet »

giligan wrote:My hopes is that the powers that be take this ThRead as a wake up call and make the changes necessary to restore the pilot group's morale.
gil
Clever...
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TR
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Post by TR »

Giligan,

I'm not going to bite on the subject (not right now anyway), however I did get your highlight.

2 are leaving for those pastures, not 9

TR
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Post by Disco Stu »

giligan wrote:9 pilots don't quit and take sideways moves (and a 10k bond) when all is rosey.
Guys will always leave for heavier metal. It isn't a reflection on working conditions. Some have gone there to get the 705 experience to help their chances of getting on at AC/WJ.

I am not there now, so I won't wade too deeply into this discussion. But the problems I hear exist will not be solved by ALPA.

Small fish, big pond.

NOTHING is going to change except you'll be taking home less of your paycheque. Day-to-day representation will remain the same. Pay will NOT go up. A NEW contract will have to be negotiated.

ALPA will not be able to fix broken airplanes. ALPA will not be able to stop operational changes on the schedule. And trust me, schedule changes are not a unique thing to PAG. And when they happen, you still end up in your home bed at the end of the day, not in a hotel room at the opposite side of the continent where you were supposed to be. ALPA will not bring respect. That's a 2-way street.

I bet DDs salary proposal isn't looking too bad now!

Everyone knows what my position on ALPA was when I was there. Despite the degrading conditions that exist during this continued expansion, I still don't think ALPA is going to solve anything.

But, as I said, I'm not there anymore, so maybe things really are that bad now.
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Post by Localizer »

Ok ... You say you want to learn more about ALPA then here is the address again .....


http://WWW.ALPA.ORG


There are links to contact people for information. If you really want to learn about it then I suggest you start there.

Loc
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Post by scooterguy »

Have some class Giligan. You are on thin ice and out of line. Make sure you have your facts straight before you tell everyone a bunch of hand me down rumors you heard last time you came to visit the pilot lounge.
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ei ei owe
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Post by ei ei owe »

bobcaygeon, it's never been about having to fly broken planes.

I've learnt a few things since this thread started. And, let me make this clear, I never said ALPA would be an asset at PAG. I've got my interest in seeing our CPA undertake more challenges and get our new contract put through. As a company, we're going places. As a pilot group, we've worked with the old contract and now have experiences to make changes for the better on the new contract coming in.
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Re: Sewertubes and ALPA

Post by pa31guy »

hmmm seems I have been hearing alot about this conversation coming up again in passing from people at the big green machine
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Jastapilot
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Re: Sewertubes and ALPA

Post by Jastapilot »

was it worth that comment to resurrect a 3.5 year old thread?? :roll:
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Re: Sewertubes and ALPA

Post by Liquid Charlie »

The common pitfall for most is that they think a union will magically fix their problems over night -- wrong -- it will take several collective agreements to achieve that (meaning several years) - one fact is that a union is only as strong as it's members and like anything else 2% carry the other 98% which makes it very difficult for carriers that are being discussed here - turnover is the biggest problem - there are just not that many in a pilot group from a lot of 703 carriers that will step up when up their MEC members move on and the eventually the union disappears up it's own asshole.

This industry is such that when you do have a contract and a set of rules to work under un-complicates a lot of things it does not always work in the pilot's favour and sometimes the company benefits as well.

It's easy to sit back and do what we do best -- whine and complain - to organize is usually done by a dedicated few with the majority sitting back on their asses just waiting to pounce or enjoy the benefits - I have a great respect for anyone who will stand up an be counted - for those who oppose unions -- that's your right but at least show respect for those who are willing to go "above and beyond"

As far as the legacy carriers -- WS -- the honey moon will be over one day and they will eventually become an airline in every sense of the word - as soon as management starts asking for concessions -- we will see what we will see --
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Re: Sewertubes and ALPA

Post by teacher »

Unions only ask for what the employees want. It's not up to ALPA to decide or any other union for that matter what demands are made during negotiations. Unions poll employees to see what they want before moving forward, ALPA at Jazz has been very reasonable in their demands (and proactive in helping Jazz find additional non CPA work) and that is due to the nature of the pilot group. We were asked what we wanted in this round of negotioations and that's what the union took to the table. Unions don't sink companies, companies sink companies. The union is the collective force but the employee group makes the demands.

Being junior at Jazz is not bad at all due to the reserve rules brought in by ALPA. Pay will get better but it was imposed during CCAA and there was not much ALPA could do about it. We'll see what ALPA does for Jazz in this new contract. One things for sure, without ALPA there wouldn't be ANY negotiations and lets face it, with a union if you're unhappy with what the company is offering you can strike and refuse to work for those conditions without getting fired. Many of us in this business including me have stood up for better pay and working conditions without union protection and were fired. This avenue is much better.

As for bonds at the Bear if the emplyees were really that concerned about it and wanted it addressed in their new contract than ALPA would bring it forward during their next contract negotiations.
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