First of all good day and thanks for viewing my post.
I am a Canadian Pilot with a ATPL. I have 3500+ total time and several hundred hours of jet time. I am looking to move/work in Europe.
I know this thread has been started in the past example: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... hlight=jaa
However most of this thread is nearly two years old. I'm wondering if anyone recently has made this move and would have some new information.
Also I am interested in flying for a charter/corporate aviation department in Europe. I have heard that several if not most of these charter companies use caribean registered aircraft. I'm just wondering if you would still need your JAA to fly these aircraft or could you get away with a Canadain ATPL.
Any information would be greatly appreciated
Cheers
Jack
Converting to JAA
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
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Flapless Jack
- Rank 1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:04 am
Friend of mine just did his JAA conversion - 6 months study, 14 exams, ride; expensive. Not hard, just a lot of work. He did his exams in Geneva, I understand Britain has lower fees - depends on what kind of deal you get for accommodation and the ride.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Jack,
I saw an ad on the internet for JAA at MFC.
Click Here
I haven't looked closely at the website to see if there is any good info.
Cheers
I saw an ad on the internet for JAA at MFC.
Click Here
I haven't looked closely at the website to see if there is any good info.
Cheers
1. Do you have the right to live and work in Europe (or Switzerland)? If no, skip to end.
2. Study for the exams. 14 in all. Sign up for BGS (Bristol Groundschool) feedback questions, they are invaluable.
3. Get your JAA Medical, an ICAO one will reduce the price.
4. To have your ATPL signed off, you will need a type rating. A cover letter to prospective employers could explain this situation (you will need to do a type rating on a two crew a/c) and save you a lot of hassle and headache, and money of course. The only other way is to do a CPL and IR, which still leaves with the proverbial "frozen ATPL" which is essentially a CPL/IR with exams written and nothing more. This will cost you a small fortune, a couple guys I know did theirs in Brno, Czech Republic, but it still isn't cheap. In Europe you pay for every landing and if you want to do an approach then you pay for that too.
Of course, another language would help, but right to live and work is essential. With your time and experience, you should have no problem finding work. Keep in mind that bonds are the rule, and buying your type is common, there are even guys paying to sit in the copilot seat of some low-cost carriers.
Duty days are much shorter, pay is of course higher but in some places the cost of living is outrageous, Copenhagen, Stolkholm and Switzerland to name a few. Mind you the cost of beer and cigarettes is generally lower than in Canada, which covers half of my operating costs.
and lastly, good luck to you. I got a PFO from the reds (interview was a disaster, different story) and decided I wasn't going to work the oil patch the rest of my life. Best move I ever made.
2. Study for the exams. 14 in all. Sign up for BGS (Bristol Groundschool) feedback questions, they are invaluable.
3. Get your JAA Medical, an ICAO one will reduce the price.
4. To have your ATPL signed off, you will need a type rating. A cover letter to prospective employers could explain this situation (you will need to do a type rating on a two crew a/c) and save you a lot of hassle and headache, and money of course. The only other way is to do a CPL and IR, which still leaves with the proverbial "frozen ATPL" which is essentially a CPL/IR with exams written and nothing more. This will cost you a small fortune, a couple guys I know did theirs in Brno, Czech Republic, but it still isn't cheap. In Europe you pay for every landing and if you want to do an approach then you pay for that too.
Of course, another language would help, but right to live and work is essential. With your time and experience, you should have no problem finding work. Keep in mind that bonds are the rule, and buying your type is common, there are even guys paying to sit in the copilot seat of some low-cost carriers.
Duty days are much shorter, pay is of course higher but in some places the cost of living is outrageous, Copenhagen, Stolkholm and Switzerland to name a few. Mind you the cost of beer and cigarettes is generally lower than in Canada, which covers half of my operating costs.
and lastly, good luck to you. I got a PFO from the reds (interview was a disaster, different story) and decided I wasn't going to work the oil patch the rest of my life. Best move I ever made.
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wallypilot
- Rank (9)
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- Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:59 pm
- Location: The Best Coast
what do you mean that an ICAO one will reduce the price. do you mean if you already have a medical, that the JAA medical is less extensive?g5 wrote:
3. Get your JAA Medical, an ICAO one will reduce the price.
So, if i understand you, if you have the 500 hours multi crew time(on an aircraft recognized by the JAA as a 2 crew airpcraft), you write the 14 exams, then apply to operator explaining that the only thing you need to get the ATPL signed off is to get a type rating? And it then follows that they would put you through the Type rating on the understanding that your ATPL will be signed off after that?g5 wrote: 4. To have your ATPL signed off, you will need a type rating. A cover letter to prospective employers could explain this situation (you will need to do a type rating on a two crew a/c) and save you a lot of hassle and headache, and money of course.
And there's no other flight training required?
thanks
wp
Wally
With respect to the JAA medical, at least one done in the UK, if you hold an ICAO Class 1 medical, then the cost is "only 250 Pounds, versus 400 some odd for the full blown initial medical. The initial JAA medical has to be done in Europe, but renewals can be done elsewhere with an approved AME. In the UK the intitial medical is done at LGW.
If you have a two crew type rating then all you need is a Skill Test, which can be done in the sim during the PPC. Only a couple extra elements required. Otherwise a full type rating course will suffice.
If the company is prepared to stump up for the examiner and sim costs, then the conversion to a JAA ATPL canbe done for under 10000 CDN.
Best move I ever made in this career.
Good Luck
With respect to the JAA medical, at least one done in the UK, if you hold an ICAO Class 1 medical, then the cost is "only 250 Pounds, versus 400 some odd for the full blown initial medical. The initial JAA medical has to be done in Europe, but renewals can be done elsewhere with an approved AME. In the UK the intitial medical is done at LGW.
If you have a two crew type rating then all you need is a Skill Test, which can be done in the sim during the PPC. Only a couple extra elements required. Otherwise a full type rating course will suffice.
If the company is prepared to stump up for the examiner and sim costs, then the conversion to a JAA ATPL canbe done for under 10000 CDN.
Best move I ever made in this career.
Good Luck
My understanding was, that even if I had a Canadian 2 crew current type, that I would have to still do a Type OR IR/ CPL ride overseas.
You are saying that all I would need is a skills test ?
Although it seems that companies wont hire you without the ATPL license, so how would you get the PPC for the skills test anyway !!
You are saying that all I would need is a skills test ?
Although it seems that companies wont hire you without the ATPL license, so how would you get the PPC for the skills test anyway !!Just callin it like it is.
This is what Moncton answered me:
To convert your licence is quite straight forward, the steps you need to follow are:
Step 1-GROUNDSCHOOL
Complete the JAA ATPL theory course, either in Distance Learning form or via a Residential Course. You can complete the ATPL exams in Orlando Florida, or in the UK, the exams are held on the first Monday of every month. Information regarding our JAA ATPL Groundschool courses is attached. The course costs are $1870 for the Distance Learning (paid in 2 payments $990 and $880 each), and the Residential Course is $4900.00 for the 26 week course. Exams are on top of these prices and they will cost $75 each (there are 14 exams).
Step 2-FLIGHT TRAINING
Complete training as required to be ready to take the Commercial Check ride, this normally entails 5 hrs of training in a Piper Arrow, and will cost about $1-3000 depending on your experience and how quickly you pickup the methods. You can complete this with us .
Step 3
Complete the Instrument rating to JAA instrument rating 15 hr conversion course is the next step, this unfortunately is only able to be done in the UK, and Ireland as this is a special course operating under a kind of loop hole in the JAR's. Previously and in most JAR countries you must complete the whole 55 hr course !! This course will cost about $5-7000 and the test is done in a twin, we have a number of schools we will recommend you go for this training. At the completion of these steps you will be the holder of a JAA Commercial Pilots Licence, JAA Instrument rating, and hold a 'frozen' ATPL, these licences are valid in all JAA member states.
Somewhere in here you will also need a Class 1 medical issued preferably by the United Kingdom CAA, but any JAA country will do. This medical is not a full medical examination , but a conversion medical exam, which means you simply undertake the same medical exam you would as if you were doing the annual medical renewal. The JAA medical must initially be completed in a JAA country, the subsequent renewals can be undertaken in almost any country.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions, you can enroll in any of our courses by visiting the nacgroundschool.com website
Regards
To convert your licence is quite straight forward, the steps you need to follow are:
Step 1-GROUNDSCHOOL
Complete the JAA ATPL theory course, either in Distance Learning form or via a Residential Course. You can complete the ATPL exams in Orlando Florida, or in the UK, the exams are held on the first Monday of every month. Information regarding our JAA ATPL Groundschool courses is attached. The course costs are $1870 for the Distance Learning (paid in 2 payments $990 and $880 each), and the Residential Course is $4900.00 for the 26 week course. Exams are on top of these prices and they will cost $75 each (there are 14 exams).
Step 2-FLIGHT TRAINING
Complete training as required to be ready to take the Commercial Check ride, this normally entails 5 hrs of training in a Piper Arrow, and will cost about $1-3000 depending on your experience and how quickly you pickup the methods. You can complete this with us .
Step 3
Complete the Instrument rating to JAA instrument rating 15 hr conversion course is the next step, this unfortunately is only able to be done in the UK, and Ireland as this is a special course operating under a kind of loop hole in the JAR's. Previously and in most JAR countries you must complete the whole 55 hr course !! This course will cost about $5-7000 and the test is done in a twin, we have a number of schools we will recommend you go for this training. At the completion of these steps you will be the holder of a JAA Commercial Pilots Licence, JAA Instrument rating, and hold a 'frozen' ATPL, these licences are valid in all JAA member states.
Somewhere in here you will also need a Class 1 medical issued preferably by the United Kingdom CAA, but any JAA country will do. This medical is not a full medical examination , but a conversion medical exam, which means you simply undertake the same medical exam you would as if you were doing the annual medical renewal. The JAA medical must initially be completed in a JAA country, the subsequent renewals can be undertaken in almost any country.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any further questions, you can enroll in any of our courses by visiting the nacgroundschool.com website
Regards
Hmmm
So 10Gs.
For a Frozen ATPL.
Might as well spend 15-18, buy an Airbus/ 737 type, give yourself an actual ATPL, andmake yourself marketable at the same time? ( Overseas that is, I just don't see the point in wasting 10Gs...almost as useful as Coastal Pacifics' what ..5gs for 747-200 sim?
)
So 10Gs.
For a Frozen ATPL.
Might as well spend 15-18, buy an Airbus/ 737 type, give yourself an actual ATPL, andmake yourself marketable at the same time? ( Overseas that is, I just don't see the point in wasting 10Gs...almost as useful as Coastal Pacifics' what ..5gs for 747-200 sim?
)Just callin it like it is.
Job Description
Sigmar Aviation Training in partnership with a UK based operator and an internationally recognised training organisation are currently seeking candidates for an A320 self-sponsored type rating program that aims to offer candidates a JAR approved A320 type rating, base training, line training and possible contract.
This program is due to commence on the 2nd April 2007.
Candidate assessments are scheduled for 6th, 9th & 11th of February 2007 to take place in Luton UK.
- JAR CPL/Frozen ATPL. Please specify the FTO where you conducted your training.
- First Class Aeromedical Certificate
- Right to work or abode in the EU
- 100 hours Pilot in Command time (PIC). Specify hours.
- MCC - this must be with a UK CAA "approved" school (see UK CAA to confirm). Please SPECIFY the TRTO where you conducted your MCC.
- Multi-Engine Instrument Rating
- Fluency in English
For further details please email a current resume to nskipsey@sigmaraviation.com
Please note ONLY candidates meeting the above stated minimum requirements will be contacted with further details.
You MUST specify the FTO and TRTO that you conducted your ATPL and MCC training.
NOTE: THERE WILL BE COURSES AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHOM HAVE 500+ HOURS JET EXPERIENCE AT A REDUCED RATE.
Sigmar Aviation Training in partnership with a UK based operator and an internationally recognised training organisation are currently seeking candidates for an A320 self-sponsored type rating program that aims to offer candidates a JAR approved A320 type rating, base training, line training and possible contract.
This program is due to commence on the 2nd April 2007.
Candidate assessments are scheduled for 6th, 9th & 11th of February 2007 to take place in Luton UK.
- JAR CPL/Frozen ATPL. Please specify the FTO where you conducted your training.
- First Class Aeromedical Certificate
- Right to work or abode in the EU
- 100 hours Pilot in Command time (PIC). Specify hours.
- MCC - this must be with a UK CAA "approved" school (see UK CAA to confirm). Please SPECIFY the TRTO where you conducted your MCC.
- Multi-Engine Instrument Rating
- Fluency in English
For further details please email a current resume to nskipsey@sigmaraviation.com
Please note ONLY candidates meeting the above stated minimum requirements will be contacted with further details.
You MUST specify the FTO and TRTO that you conducted your ATPL and MCC training.
NOTE: THERE WILL BE COURSES AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHOM HAVE 500+ HOURS JET EXPERIENCE AT A REDUCED RATE.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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Gadgetgoat
- Rank 0
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:50 am
So how do the charter people do the JAA thing? Like Skyservice, when they send some crews over to EU do they have to do the 14 exams.
There has been numerous posts for short term EU contracts with the only requriment is having a EU passport? To do those contracts do you have to do the full exam load?
There has been numerous posts for short term EU contracts with the only requriment is having a EU passport? To do those contracts do you have to do the full exam load?
My two cents (pence) worth:
I know guys who are type rated (A320/737) from non-JAA states with time on type and they have to write all 14 JAA ATPL subject examinations to convert to JAA. If you hold an ICAO non-JAA ATPL, that will only exempt you from the 750 hours of required ground school to write the exams. In other words you could theoretically walk in and write the exams.
Also, an ICAO non-JAA ATPL will also exempt you from the MCC if you can prove you have more than 500 hours on a multi pilot aircraft.
I know guys who are type rated (A320/737) from non-JAA states with time on type and they have to write all 14 JAA ATPL subject examinations to convert to JAA. If you hold an ICAO non-JAA ATPL, that will only exempt you from the 750 hours of required ground school to write the exams. In other words you could theoretically walk in and write the exams.
Also, an ICAO non-JAA ATPL will also exempt you from the MCC if you can prove you have more than 500 hours on a multi pilot aircraft.
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Flapless Jack
- Rank 1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:04 am
First of all I would like thank everyone for their input. However things are still a little unclear.
UKBOUND,
You have gone through this process and are now working in Europe?
You had mentioned that with 500 hours on a two crew aircraft and Canadian ATPL you only need the skills test? And then a ppc ride? If I'm reading this correctly. So the next time I go to flight safety I could ask for a JAA check ride amd that would be it?
Seems a little to easy......I hope your right
Jack
UKBOUND,
You have gone through this process and are now working in Europe?
You had mentioned that with 500 hours on a two crew aircraft and Canadian ATPL you only need the skills test? And then a ppc ride? If I'm reading this correctly. So the next time I go to flight safety I could ask for a JAA check ride amd that would be it?
Seems a little to easy......I hope your right
Jack
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shower of sparks
- Rank 3
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:17 am
hey flapless jack, i have a link for you it's for the LASORS its has all the licencing and conversion info. http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF
LASORS is an acronym for licencing, administration, standardisation and something-er-ather....
you can buy a paper soft cover publication too. i did.
sos
LASORS is an acronym for licencing, administration, standardisation and something-er-ather....
you can buy a paper soft cover publication too. i did.
sos
Flapless
Unless you have significant PIC time on Jet Transport Aircraft(1500 hours I believe), you still have to write all fourteen exams. The UK operator I am currently employed by, paid for the sim, examiner, and CAA observer during my recurrent LPC/OPC, so I could activate my JAA ATPL. I was already rated and had time on type. and had worked with them previously on a validation.
The cost of writing the exams, including airfare and hotels was approxiamtely $7500CDN. This was all done in Orlando.
If you are not type rated, taking a full type rating course by an approved TRO will also suffice, but this is expensive. You must still have all of the exams written. Some UK operators will do vakidations (Ryanair I believe), but you have twelve months to write the ATPL exams. The validation is only good for 12 months, and you need the type rating to get the validation.
The link to the LASOR's in the previous post should have most of the requirements.
So in short. If you are already type rated on something useful(737, 757, 767, any airbus, RJ's etc), the conversion can be done relatively inexpensively, if you find a willing European employer prepared to assist.
If you are not typed, it is expensive( appro 20000GBP for the type.)
Also, to be of any use you must have a right to live in work in Europe(passport), otherwise you might only find very temporary employment, but not enough to make up for the cost.
Regards
UKbound
Unless you have significant PIC time on Jet Transport Aircraft(1500 hours I believe), you still have to write all fourteen exams. The UK operator I am currently employed by, paid for the sim, examiner, and CAA observer during my recurrent LPC/OPC, so I could activate my JAA ATPL. I was already rated and had time on type. and had worked with them previously on a validation.
The cost of writing the exams, including airfare and hotels was approxiamtely $7500CDN. This was all done in Orlando.
If you are not type rated, taking a full type rating course by an approved TRO will also suffice, but this is expensive. You must still have all of the exams written. Some UK operators will do vakidations (Ryanair I believe), but you have twelve months to write the ATPL exams. The validation is only good for 12 months, and you need the type rating to get the validation.
The link to the LASOR's in the previous post should have most of the requirements.
So in short. If you are already type rated on something useful(737, 757, 767, any airbus, RJ's etc), the conversion can be done relatively inexpensively, if you find a willing European employer prepared to assist.
If you are not typed, it is expensive( appro 20000GBP for the type.)
Also, to be of any use you must have a right to live in work in Europe(passport), otherwise you might only find very temporary employment, but not enough to make up for the cost.
Regards
UKbound
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Flapless Jack
- Rank 1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:04 am
Thank you all for your information.
SOS- thanks a lot for the link. I have found that very useful.
UKBOUND- Thanks a lot for your information. It looks as thought there is no easy way to achieve this. As I niegher have a valid EU passport nor a PPC on a Boeing or Airbus. However, my type ratings are on Corporate aircraft and from my understanding a lot of the coporate aircraft in Europe are caribean registered for tax reasons. With that being said I believe you don't require a JAA but rather a ICAO license and i will have to inquire about the passport requirement.
My fingers are crossed
Jack
SOS- thanks a lot for the link. I have found that very useful.
UKBOUND- Thanks a lot for your information. It looks as thought there is no easy way to achieve this. As I niegher have a valid EU passport nor a PPC on a Boeing or Airbus. However, my type ratings are on Corporate aircraft and from my understanding a lot of the coporate aircraft in Europe are caribean registered for tax reasons. With that being said I believe you don't require a JAA but rather a ICAO license and i will have to inquire about the passport requirement.
My fingers are crossed
Jack
